jerseyshorejohnny
Well-known member
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204136404577207072414554932.html?KEYWORDS=college+coffers+are+filling+up
College Coffers Filling Up But Cost Are ...
- Thread starter jerseyshorejohnny
- Start date
A quick side note, but there are lots of different ways Universities use their money. They cite the University of Illinois in the article, but they are a state that is broke beyond belief. SJU, while costs are certainly a lot higher than in the past, is really good with giving out scholarships and runs a very cut and dry merit based as well as need based system for doling out monies. Well, I don't know if it's the same not, but they have until recently.
Every school totally different situation. That said, I hope SJU's endowment is doing well and they use any gains to start furthering the academic reputation of our beloved school. We've fallen too far and we can still stay the course of our mission and improve our academic standards.
Every school totally different situation. That said, I hope SJU's endowment is doing well and they use any gains to start furthering the academic reputation of our beloved school. We've fallen too far and we can still stay the course of our mission and improve our academic standards.
beast of the east
Active member
It appears that SJU has done a very good job using contributions. FH has vastly improved the campus with a student athletic center, dorms and senior dorms, a new chapel, and a refurbished CA. I've heard that 95% of students receive either scholarships or financial aid. The 2011 incoming pharmacy class had an average SAT of 1350 (of 1600), the highest in their history. They are even trying to address the steep decline in Catholic students (down to 50% from 60% only 3 years ago). You can criticize SJU justifiably in a lot of areas, but overall they have managed their endowment well. In addition, I think when FH arrived, only 3% of alumni were donors, and JSJ would know better, but I think that number is now approaching 20%.
jerseyshorejohnny
Well-known member
Would like to see the university breakdown SAT scores for each of their colleges.
The kids in Pharmacy have great SAT scores but they are a relatively small part of the university. As Beast stated their scores are 1350 (out of 1600), while the overall average for St. John's is just about 1100.
The Jim Pellow book, Transformational Leadership, (page 137) points out the differences between resident and non-resident students.
Pellow also mentioned (6 yrs. ago) that Queens resident students have SAT scores that were almost 100 points higher than those at Staten Island.
Stated that if Queens continues to increase its SAT profile due to its national student recruitment, this gap will widen and St. John's will experience a large difference in academic ability between its New York City campuses.
The kids in Pharmacy have great SAT scores but they are a relatively small part of the university. As Beast stated their scores are 1350 (out of 1600), while the overall average for St. John's is just about 1100.
The Jim Pellow book, Transformational Leadership, (page 137) points out the differences between resident and non-resident students.
Pellow also mentioned (6 yrs. ago) that Queens resident students have SAT scores that were almost 100 points higher than those at Staten Island.
Stated that if Queens continues to increase its SAT profile due to its national student recruitment, this gap will widen and St. John's will experience a large difference in academic ability between its New York City campuses.
beast of the east
Active member
Let's be really honest about this. When the AVERAGE SAT score is 1100, it means you are admitting students with SATs under 1000. Most of those kids have no business being in a 4 year college, no less St. John's. SJU long ago sold out it's academic reputation to take just about anyone who could provide revenue for the school.
jerseyshorejohnny
Well-known member
Here's a wild idea that will never, ever materialize, but what the heck......
As many of you may know across the street from The University of Notre Dame is a 4 year school named Holy Cross College.
Years ago it was a 2 yr. institution and some kids who wanted to attend ND, but were not accepted out of high school went there.
Both schools are run by the Holy Cross Congregation.
Kids at Holy Cross are able to access the ND library, are eligible to purchase student tickets for all ND athletic events and participate in a number of ND student activities
If they got their grades up, they had a shot at transferring. It wasn't a guarantee but over the years they established somewhat of a pipeline.
You'll remember the famous scene in the movie RUDY, where he applied a few times before he was finally accepted.
Today, far, far fewer applicants are able to transfer from Holy Cross College since Notre Dame has become even far more competitive than it was before.
If one wanted to raise the academic profile of the St. John's student body, perhaps those who one deems as not qualified (i.e. remedial reading, writing, and and/or math skill sets) could attend a 2 year Vincentian school that would be in business to produce students who would be ready for college.
If one was able to do this, St. John's would solve their SAT, retention rate and 6yr. graduation rate stats, to name three, in half a heart beat.
Since I'm making things up as I go along (and have by no means thought this through), one could convert the S.I. campus into a 2 yr. school (call it Vincentian College) with its own administration and policies but let their students have a tangible connection to St. John's
The fly in the soup is that St. John's would have to become a highly competitive institution to make it worth the while of those attending "Vincentian College" rather than, say, than Nassau CC.
If students thought they had a better chance to attend a competitive/selective institution they would roll the dice and take the risk of going to a 2 yr. school with a higher price tag.
If the 4 yr. school wasn't thought to be the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, it simply wouldn't work.
As many of you may know across the street from The University of Notre Dame is a 4 year school named Holy Cross College.
Years ago it was a 2 yr. institution and some kids who wanted to attend ND, but were not accepted out of high school went there.
Both schools are run by the Holy Cross Congregation.
Kids at Holy Cross are able to access the ND library, are eligible to purchase student tickets for all ND athletic events and participate in a number of ND student activities
If they got their grades up, they had a shot at transferring. It wasn't a guarantee but over the years they established somewhat of a pipeline.
You'll remember the famous scene in the movie RUDY, where he applied a few times before he was finally accepted.
Today, far, far fewer applicants are able to transfer from Holy Cross College since Notre Dame has become even far more competitive than it was before.
If one wanted to raise the academic profile of the St. John's student body, perhaps those who one deems as not qualified (i.e. remedial reading, writing, and and/or math skill sets) could attend a 2 year Vincentian school that would be in business to produce students who would be ready for college.
If one was able to do this, St. John's would solve their SAT, retention rate and 6yr. graduation rate stats, to name three, in half a heart beat.
Since I'm making things up as I go along (and have by no means thought this through), one could convert the S.I. campus into a 2 yr. school (call it Vincentian College) with its own administration and policies but let their students have a tangible connection to St. John's
The fly in the soup is that St. John's would have to become a highly competitive institution to make it worth the while of those attending "Vincentian College" rather than, say, than Nassau CC.
If students thought they had a better chance to attend a competitive/selective institution they would roll the dice and take the risk of going to a 2 yr. school with a higher price tag.
If the 4 yr. school wasn't thought to be the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, it simply wouldn't work.
beast of the east
Active member
Correct me if I'm wrong, but back in the day, didn't St. Vincent's College offer a 2 year degree? I like your idea of a 2 year college, but SJU administration has always sought to keep students at SJU. When I worked at SJU, when a kid failed out of pharmacy school, they immediately set up an appointment for him across campus to pursue a Health administration degree. To my knowledge this practice continues today. The goal - keep the tuition money coming in from the kid, and not lose a student.
This is all very nice, but I don't think the school has any real interest in raising the academic requirements for the lower 40% of the student body. They purport this in the name of their mission to the poor, adapted from their founding mission to provide education for children of Catholic working class families.
One end result of SJU mediocrity is nearly all of our most generous donors do not and would not send their children to SJU.
I'm not sure if there is anything inherently wrong with SJU being a mediocre or even lower end private school. After all, someone has to be in the middle or lower rung, and even as a mediocre school, it serves a purpose.
jerseyshorejohnny
Well-known member
From Jim Pellow's book, Transformational Leadership page 90-91
" In its early history, St. John's was considered a good school academically, with a well-prepared student population that came from strong Catholic high schools in New York. In the 1970's and 1980's, St. John's began to be known as a "safety school," where students of modest ability could attend and gain a degree in a wide variety of traditional and professional programs.
Under Father Cahill, the university had grown from 7,700 undergraduate students in 1972 to 14,400 in 1985, partly due to the growth of The College of Professional Studies. Yet many felt the quality of students had begun to decline. The average SAT scores had in fact been falling, dropping 70 points between 1970 and 1985, from approximately 1100 to 1030, while the national average SAT scores fell only 20 points, from 1030 to 1010. During the same time, the size of the entering class grew 57% from approximately 1,950 to 3,070 new freshmen.
By accepting marginal students, was St. John's staying true to its historical mission, recently renewed as "service to the poor," or was St. John's merely creating innovative programs to enroll as many students as possible to increase revenue?
One former board member described Father Cahill's strategy as "opening the doors and letting anyone in," while a retired senior administrator claimed , "The St. John's mission was always to serve the underprepared, and we provide all students with the support they need to achieve an excellent education."
Still another former academic administrator described the tensions in taking a lofty statement of mission and purpose and implementing it in real life:
I think first and foremost, St. John's is an educational institution. The first and primary mission has to be to provide the best damn education that you can - that's your commitment, that's your obligation...we live to be an educational institution.......
But in addition.....we would hope that the St. John's education is more than that - that it's a principal education, and it's a value based education....that's going to come in different ways.... It's going to come from some faculty members no matter what discipline or course they are teaching.... You have campus ministry, you have student life programs, you have lectures, you have seminars, you have people that you are bringing to campus because you think that they are worthwhile for students to hear....it's all those things...
And you want to keep your baccalaureate degree standards high, yet, we live in New York City.....There are potential students, maybe who can't reflect everything we are looking for at this point, but yet have potential.
" In its early history, St. John's was considered a good school academically, with a well-prepared student population that came from strong Catholic high schools in New York. In the 1970's and 1980's, St. John's began to be known as a "safety school," where students of modest ability could attend and gain a degree in a wide variety of traditional and professional programs.
Under Father Cahill, the university had grown from 7,700 undergraduate students in 1972 to 14,400 in 1985, partly due to the growth of The College of Professional Studies. Yet many felt the quality of students had begun to decline. The average SAT scores had in fact been falling, dropping 70 points between 1970 and 1985, from approximately 1100 to 1030, while the national average SAT scores fell only 20 points, from 1030 to 1010. During the same time, the size of the entering class grew 57% from approximately 1,950 to 3,070 new freshmen.
By accepting marginal students, was St. John's staying true to its historical mission, recently renewed as "service to the poor," or was St. John's merely creating innovative programs to enroll as many students as possible to increase revenue?
One former board member described Father Cahill's strategy as "opening the doors and letting anyone in," while a retired senior administrator claimed , "The St. John's mission was always to serve the underprepared, and we provide all students with the support they need to achieve an excellent education."
Still another former academic administrator described the tensions in taking a lofty statement of mission and purpose and implementing it in real life:
I think first and foremost, St. John's is an educational institution. The first and primary mission has to be to provide the best damn education that you can - that's your commitment, that's your obligation...we live to be an educational institution.......
But in addition.....we would hope that the St. John's education is more than that - that it's a principal education, and it's a value based education....that's going to come in different ways.... It's going to come from some faculty members no matter what discipline or course they are teaching.... You have campus ministry, you have student life programs, you have lectures, you have seminars, you have people that you are bringing to campus because you think that they are worthwhile for students to hear....it's all those things...
And you want to keep your baccalaureate degree standards high, yet, we live in New York City.....There are potential students, maybe who can't reflect everything we are looking for at this point, but yet have potential.
beast of the east
Active member
JSJ,
Another well thought, well researched, and well written response from you. To double the size of enrollment without creating commensurate demand from higher end students naturally will result in a diluted talent pool. Anecdotally, I attended SJU in the 70s, grad school in the 80s, and maintained strong contact with student organizations until around 2000. Although subjective, I found a continual decline in the overall quality of student at the school. Of course, by 2000, SJU had all but lost it's Long Island connection, with most top students able to go to away schools doing so. In that period Hofstra grew mightily into a top 30 liberal arts school, and Molloy expanded rapidly, filling the void of a decent local Catholic University to further siphon off students.
In their recent history, SJU has invested in plant expansion and beautification, and enlarged the pool of financial aid available. Is there any evidence that they have increased their commitment to top flight faculty to improve their academic standing?
In terms of campus ministry, I did meet an outstanding young man who has been a leader on campus at SJU in a Chrisitan group, Campus Crusade for Christ, or something like that. It is however, a Christian organization, not Catholic. Still pretty impressive, though not sponsored or led by the school itself.
beast of the east
Active member
I'm certain that's true. Whenever the economy is bad, demand for healthcare careers, especially those with high starting salaries like pharmacy, soar.