Can St. John's Close the Deal?

[paultzman]

LOne of the interesting story lines as we near the early signing period is if the St. John's Red Storm can close the deal and reel in a class that potentially could make Steve Lavin's roster a very formidable one for the next several years.

The Red Storm are going to lose a significant amount of talent following this year in the form of D'Angelo Harrison, Phil Greene and Dom Pointer to graduation, and then there is always the chance that Rysheed Jordan decides to go pro. Because of that there is a lot of playing time to offer for the Red Storm,and also significant holes to fill.

In an ideal world for St. John's, they would fill those holes with three prospects: Cheick Diallo, Isaiah Briscoe and Brandon Sampson. Most have pegged St. John's as the clear leader for Briscoe with a decision coming any time, and also Sampson has rumored to be leaning to St. John's as well, though the timeline for his decision is less clear.

Beyond that, most consider St. John's at least a co-leader for Diallo, though he definitely will wait until the spring. If the Red Storm are able to land all three it would be a huge coup and give them one of the most talented rosters not only in the Big East, but also on the East Coast in general.

@Rob_Harrington: Our free Notebook features T.J. Leaf, Tevin Mack/P.J. Dozier, a sleeper for Ga. Tech & St. John's:http://t.co/CCIb5O1ByU

 

[beast of the east]

LOne of the interesting story lines as we near the early signing period is if the St. John's Red Storm can close the deal and reel in a class that potentially could make Steve Lavin's roster a very formidable one for the next several years.

The Red Storm are going to lose a significant amount of talent following this year in the form of D'Angelo Harrison, Phil Greene and Dom Pointer to graduation, and then there is always the chance that Rysheed Jordan decides to go pro. Because of that there is a lot of playing time to offer for the Red Storm,and also significant holes to fill.

In an ideal world for St. John's, they would fill those holes with three prospects: Cheick Diallo, Isaiah Briscoe and Brandon Sampson. Most have pegged St. John's as the clear leader for Briscoe with a decision coming any time, and also Sampson has rumored to be leaning to St. John's as well, though the timeline for his decision is less clear.

Beyond that, most consider St. John's at least a co-leader for Diallo, though he definitely will wait until the spring. If the Red Storm are able to land all three it would be a huge coup and give them one of the most talented rosters not only in the Big East, but also on the East Coast in general.

@Rob_Harrington: Our free Notebook features T.J. Leaf, Tevin Mack/P.J. Dozier, a sleeper for Ga. Tech & St. John's:http://t.co/CCIb5O1ByU

More than anything, Lavin was brought in because he is a closer. Certainly selling BMWs are a lot easier than selling Plymouths, and our program was a Yugo when he took over. Still I question whether Lavin has lost the "eye of the tiger", or if as a Californian, he ever really had it the way us New Yorkers expect it. To me, all the X's and O's stuff is secondary by a mile when it comes to the Lavin discussion. In the past his recruiting success more than offset his deficiencies on the bench. So I don't expect excellence on the bench, but at $2 million plus, we should be expecting a stockpile of blue chip talent on the bench, handicapped a bit because we aren't UCONN, Kentucky, or Kansas.

 

[paultzman]

LOne of the interesting story lines as we near the early signing period is if the St. John's Red Storm can close the deal and reel in a class that potentially could make Steve Lavin's roster a very formidable one for the next several years.

The Red Storm are going to lose a significant amount of talent following this year in the form of D'Angelo Harrison, Phil Greene and Dom Pointer to graduation, and then there is always the chance that Rysheed Jordan decides to go pro. Because of that there is a lot of playing time to offer for the Red Storm,and also significant holes to fill.

In an ideal world for St. John's, they would fill those holes with three prospects: Cheick Diallo, Isaiah Briscoe and Brandon Sampson. Most have pegged St. John's as the clear leader for Briscoe with a decision coming any time, and also Sampson has rumored to be leaning to St. John's as well, though the timeline for his decision is less clear.

Beyond that, most consider St. John's at least a co-leader for Diallo, though he definitely will wait until the spring. If the Red Storm are able to land all three it would be a huge coup and give them one of the most talented rosters not only in the Big East, but also on the East Coast in general.

@Rob_Harrington: Our free Notebook features T.J. Leaf, Tevin Mack/P.J. Dozier, a sleeper for Ga. Tech & St. John's:http://t.co/CCIb5O1ByU

More than anything, Lavin was brought in because he is a closer. Certainly selling BMWs are a lot easier than selling Plymouths, and our program was a Yugo when he took over. Still I question whether Lavin has lost the "eye of the tiger", or if as a Californian, he ever really had it the way us New Yorkers expect it. To me, all the X's and O's stuff is secondary by a mile when it comes to the Lavin discussion. In the past his recruiting success more than offset his deficiencies on the bench. So I don't expect excellence on the bench, but at $2 million plus, we should be expecting a stockpile of blue chip talent on the bench, handicapped a bit because we aren't UCONN, Kentucky, or Kansas.

Very fair.

 

[Jack Williams]

LOne of the interesting story lines as we near the early signing period is if the St. John's Red Storm can close the deal and reel in a class that potentially could make Steve Lavin's roster a very formidable one for the next several years.

The Red Storm are going to lose a significant amount of talent following this year in the form of D'Angelo Harrison, Phil Greene and Dom Pointer to graduation, and then there is always the chance that Rysheed Jordan decides to go pro. Because of that there is a lot of playing time to offer for the Red Storm,and also significant holes to fill.

In an ideal world for St. John's, they would fill those holes with three prospects: Cheick Diallo, Isaiah Briscoe and Brandon Sampson. Most have pegged St. John's as the clear leader for Briscoe with a decision coming any time, and also Sampson has rumored to be leaning to St. John's as well, though the timeline for his decision is less clear.

Beyond that, most consider St. John's at least a co-leader for Diallo, though he definitely will wait until the spring. If the Red Storm are able to land all three it would be a huge coup and give them one of the most talented rosters not only in the Big East, but also on the East Coast in general.

@Rob_Harrington: Our free Notebook features T.J. Leaf, Tevin Mack/P.J. Dozier, a sleeper for Ga. Tech & St. John's:http://t.co/CCIb5O1ByU

More than anything, Lavin was brought in because he is a closer. Certainly selling BMWs are a lot easier than selling Plymouths, and our program was a Yugo when he took over. Still I question whether Lavin has lost the "eye of the tiger", or if as a Californian, he ever really had it the way us New Yorkers expect it. To me, all the X's and O's stuff is secondary by a mile when it comes to the Lavin discussion. In the past his recruiting success more than offset his deficiencies on the bench. So I don't expect excellence on the bench, but at $2 million plus, we should be expecting a stockpile of blue chip talent on the bench, handicapped a bit because we aren't UCONN, Kentucky, or Kansas.

I think Lavins greatest weakness is him and his staffs ability to find and evaluate blue chip talent. Well his greatest recruiting weakness, I don't feel like getting into his game coaching at the moment.

But my point is at UCLA, with such a prestigious program that is/was, Lavin constantly went after top tier talent and nothing else. I don't have a list of all the commits he ever got at UCLA, but I bet there aren't a lot of blue chip guys who weren't ranked that high but Lavin and his staff found them, were impressed, and coached them up.

Which makes me wonder, what if some of these guys like Amar have the capability of being a good player for us but never pans out because the coaching staff isn't coaching them the right way?

I dont think Lavin is good at bring in blue chip guys, but if he has brought in blue chippers at SJU they haven't panned out and I think the staff partially deserves blame for that too.

Lavins goes after a lot of 5 star recruits, and I'm starting to believe it's because he's not a believer in his ability to improve his players.

 

[newsman13]

Sorry, I don't understand a word of Jack's post.

Sadly, I'm one of those old school guys who remember when St John's was relevant...NYC high school talent was relevant...the Big East was relevant and in all but the Mullin, Berry, Jackson, Wennington years all we could achieve was a high level of mediocrity.

We've been a turd in the toilet ever since Jarvis left.

We finally brought in a coach who was relevant. Unfortunately, everything else went down the tubes. It's killing me to lower my expectations. What we're up against is schools that contend for championships every year...coaches who do the same...being part of a conference that's second tier...playing in a city where there's a heck of a lot more to do than in the other Manhattan (Kansas). We're also up against an organization (NCAA) where our would be top rebounder has to disappear while it looks the other way as North Carolina suits up everyone whether or not they ever saw the inside of a classroom.

Lavin is worth the two million bucks because he's a great face for the university. He's no Hercules, so cleaning out the NCAA stables is out of the question. What has to happen is we stay local...play the Iona's, Manhattan's, Columbia's etc in a local conference while remaining in the Big East...build local rivalries...recruit all nyc players (and play them)...and move on. These games can be fun to watch. Lavin won't win a national championship. Neither will anyone else who gets brought in.

We could have had Calipari. We didn't want him. We got Norm. FLUSSSSSHHH.

 

[Jack Williams]

Sorry, I don't understand a word of Jack's post.

Sadly, I'm one of those old school guys who remember when St John's was relevant...NYC high school talent was relevant...the Big East was relevant and in all but the Mullin, Berry, Jackson, Wennington years all we could achieve was a high level of mediocrity.

We've been a turd in the toilet ever since Jarvis left.

We finally brought in a coach who was relevant. Unfortunately, everything else went down the tubes. It's killing me to lower my expectations. What we're up against is schools that contend for championships every year...coaches who do the same...being part of a conference that's second tier...playing in a city where there's a heck of a lot more to do than in the other Manhattan (Kansas). We're also up against an organization (NCAA) where our would be top rebounder has to disappear while it looks the other way as North Carolina suits up everyone whether or not they ever saw the inside of a classroom.

Lavin is worth the two million bucks because he's a great face for the university. He's no Hercules, so cleaning out the NCAA stables is out of the question. What has to happen is we stay local...play the Iona's, Manhattan's, Columbia's etc in a local conference while remaining in the Big East...build local rivalries...recruit all nyc players (and play them)...and move on. These games can be fun to watch. Lavin won't win a national championship. Neither will anyone else who gets brought in.

We could have had Calipari. We didn't want him. We got Norm. FLUSSSSSHHH.

Basically my point was Lavins biggest weakness is recruiting lower ranked players who are effective. Like a guy who isn't a superstar but does the dirty work to make a team thats good great. I thought that's what blue chip meant it might not.

A lot of people were disappointed when Thomas was ruled inelegible because many thought he was going to be one of those guys.

My point basically was that Lavin isn't good at getting guys like that, and when he does, he's not great at improving them so they can be the best they can be.

And I think Lavin knows he's not good at coaching them up, so he goes after these 5 stars so they come in ready to go. My biggest gripe about Lavin is he hasn't found a balance to the 2015-14 classes. In 2014, he struck out on high ranked talent and didn't do well looking for diamonds in the rough (unless Amar plays great in his career). And in 2015. He's going after 5 stars again, and it appears he is doing that and not looking for lower ranked guys at the same time. Which leaves me to ask the question: what if Lav strikes out again on these 3 (very possible)???

There appears to be little back up plan, and with all our seniors leaving and maybe Jordan and obekpa as well, that means than Lavins job might be on the line with these 3 recruits. So you better hope he can close these out.

A tournament bid would help with his job security this year, but the fact remains this recruiting class will make or break our future with Lavin,

 

[Class of 72]

Sorry, I don't understand a word of Jack's post.

Sadly, I'm one of those old school guys who remember when St John's was relevant...NYC high school talent was relevant...the Big East was relevant and in all but the Mullin, Berry, Jackson, Wennington years all we could achieve was a high level of mediocrity.

We've been a turd in the toilet ever since Jarvis left.

We finally brought in a coach who was relevant. Unfortunately, everything else went down the tubes. It's killing me to lower my expectations. What we're up against is schools that contend for championships every year...coaches who do the same...being part of a conference that's second tier...playing in a city where there's a heck of a lot more to do than in the other Manhattan (Kansas). We're also up against an organization (NCAA) where our would be top rebounder has to disappear while it looks the other way as North Carolina suits up everyone whether or not they ever saw the inside of a classroom.

Lavin is worth the two million bucks because he's a great face for the university. He's no Hercules, so cleaning out the NCAA stables is out of the question. What has to happen is we stay local...play the Iona's, Manhattan's, Columbia's etc in a local conference while remaining in the Big East...build local rivalries...recruit all nyc players (and play them)...and move on. These games can be fun to watch. Lavin won't win a national championship. Neither will anyone else who gets brought in.

We could have had Calipari. We didn't want him. We got Norm. FLUSSSSSHHH.

Newsie much of what you say is true but we need a national schedule lIke Gonzaga to be relevant. We play the locals like Columbia, St. Francis, LIU, Fordham, NJIT, and of course Seton Hall. NYC will never have a Big Five like Philly so forget it!
The biggest problem is recruiting. If you forget that first year when Lavin was annointed the man who got whomever he went after his recruiting has been just average for a school that should be the flagship of the conference. The last major recruit was Rysheed Jordan who as is the case with most Lavin recruits, was a late signing. He and Chiles do not close early on anyone. Tony is a good person but much too laid back for big time recruiting. He is no Slice.
As for a national title I agree....forget it! Calipari runs a travelling all star team as basically a farm team for the NBA and his formula works BUT neither he nor Kentucky will win a National title with that system either. Only 10 teams each year will have better than 10-1 odds of winning the NCAA. There are 100 top players every year and only 30 or so will sign with those schools. Lavin has failed to sign any significant number of the remaining 70. Last year's recruiting was a complete failure and we will pay the price for some time to come. When I harped about it last year I received "warnings" from mods. Ironically, some have jumped on the recruiting failure bandwagon but you are all a day late and a dollar short.
I repeat....it will not be our W-L record that saves Lavin from getting canned this year but who he signs. Had our staff been more aggressive the past two years it would not have come down to Isaiah Briscoe determining the coach's and the program's fate.

 

[monte]

Sorry, I don't understand a word of Jack's post.

Sadly, I'm one of those old school guys who remember when St John's was relevant...NYC high school talent was relevant...the Big East was relevant and in all but the Mullin, Berry, Jackson, Wennington years all we could achieve was a high level of mediocrity.

We've been a turd in the toilet ever since Jarvis left.

We finally brought in a coach who was relevant. Unfortunately, everything else went down the tubes. It's killing me to lower my expectations. What we're up against is schools that contend for championships every year...coaches who do the same...being part of a conference that's second tier...playing in a city where there's a heck of a lot more to do than in the other Manhattan (Kansas). We're also up against an organization (NCAA) where our would be top rebounder has to disappear while it looks the other way as North Carolina suits up everyone whether or not they ever saw the inside of a classroom.

Lavin is worth the two million bucks because he's a great face for the university. He's no Hercules, so cleaning out the NCAA stables is out of the question. What has to happen is we stay local...play the Iona's, Manhattan's, Columbia's etc in a local conference while remaining in the Big East...build local rivalries...recruit all nyc players (and play them)...and move on. These games can be fun to watch. Lavin won't win a national championship. Neither will anyone else who gets brought in.

We could have had Calipari. We didn't want him. We got Norm. FLUSSSSSHHH.

So you want to lower the level of the competition down to the level of our current coach because he's a good "face of the program"?

 

[rawdognyc]

Sorry, I don't understand a word of Jack's post.

Sadly, I'm one of those old school guys who remember when St John's was relevant...NYC high school talent was relevant...the Big East was relevant and in all but the Mullin, Berry, Jackson, Wennington years all we could achieve was a high level of mediocrity.

We've been a turd in the toilet ever since Jarvis left.

We finally brought in a coach who was relevant. Unfortunately, everything else went down the tubes. It's killing me to lower my expectations. What we're up against is schools that contend for championships every year...coaches who do the same...being part of a conference that's second tier...playing in a city where there's a heck of a lot more to do than in the other Manhattan (Kansas). We're also up against an organization (NCAA) where our would be top rebounder has to disappear while it looks the other way as North Carolina suits up everyone whether or not they ever saw the inside of a classroom.

Lavin is worth the two million bucks because he's a great face for the university. He's no Hercules, so cleaning out the NCAA stables is out of the question. What has to happen is we stay local...play the Iona's, Manhattan's, Columbia's etc in a local conference while remaining in the Big East...build local rivalries...recruit all nyc players (and play them)...and move on. These games can be fun to watch. Lavin won't win a national championship. Neither will anyone else who gets brought in.

We could have had Calipari. We didn't want him. We got Norm. FLUSSSSSHHH.

Newsie much of what you say is true but we need a national schedule lIke Gonzaga to be relevant. We play the locals like Columbia, St. Francis, LIU, Fordham, NJIT, and of course Seton Hall. NYC will never have a Big Five like Philly so forget it!
The biggest problem is recruiting. If you forget that first year when Lavin was annointed the man who got whomever he went after his recruiting has been just average for a school that should be the flagship of the conference. The last major recruit was Rysheed Jordan who as is the case with most Lavin recruits, was a late signing. He and Chiles do not close early on anyone. Tony is a good person but much too laid back for big time recruiting. He is no Slice.
As for a national title I agree....forget it! Calipari runs a travelling all star team as basically a farm team for the NBA and his formula works BUT neither he nor Kentucky will win a National title with that system either. Only 10 teams each year will have better than 10-1 odds of winning the NCAA. There are 100 top players every year and only 30 or so will sign with those schools. Lavin has failed to sign any significant number of the remaining 70. Last year's recruiting was a complete failure and we will pay the price for some time to come. When I harped about it last year I received "warnings" from mods. Ironically, some have jumped on the recruiting failure bandwagon but you are all a day late and a dollar short.
I repeat....it will not be our W-L record that saves Lavin from getting canned this year but who he signs. Had our staff been more aggressive the past two years it would not have come down to Isaiah Briscoe determining the coach's and the program's fate.

I agree. He needs to sign at least 2 of the big 3 we are going for. If not he needs to go. Let's say we surprise people and have a 23 win Ncaa berth season, it won't mean much if we have no recruits for next year. We'd be looking at a possibly a 10 win or fewer season next year. That's the reality right now for our program.

 

[austour]

Sorry, I don't understand a word of Jack's post.

Sadly, I'm one of those old school guys who remember when St John's was relevant...NYC high school talent was relevant...the Big East was relevant and in all but the Mullin, Berry, Jackson, Wennington years all we could achieve was a high level of mediocrity.

We've been a turd in the toilet ever since Jarvis left.

We finally brought in a coach who was relevant. Unfortunately, everything else went down the tubes. It's killing me to lower my expectations. What we're up against is schools that contend for championships every year...coaches who do the same...being part of a conference that's second tier...playing in a city where there's a heck of a lot more to do than in the other Manhattan (Kansas). We're also up against an organization (NCAA) where our would be top rebounder has to disappear while it looks the other way as North Carolina suits up everyone whether or not they ever saw the inside of a classroom.

Lavin is worth the two million bucks because he's a great face for the university. He's no Hercules, so cleaning out the NCAA stables is out of the question. What has to happen is we stay local...play the Iona's, Manhattan's, Columbia's etc in a local conference while remaining in the Big East...build local rivalries...recruit all nyc players (and play them)...and move on. These games can be fun to watch. Lavin won't win a national championship. Neither will anyone else who gets brought in.

We could have had Calipari. We didn't want him. We got Norm. FLUSSSSSHHH.

Newsie much of what you say is true but we need a national schedule lIke Gonzaga to be relevant. We play the locals like Columbia, St. Francis, LIU, Fordham, NJIT, and of course Seton Hall. NYC will never have a Big Five like Philly so forget it!
The biggest problem is recruiting. If you forget that first year when Lavin was annointed the man who got whomever he went after his recruiting has been just average for a school that should be the flagship of the conference. The last major recruit was Rysheed Jordan who as is the case with most Lavin recruits, was a late signing. He and Chiles do not close early on anyone. Tony is a good person but much too laid back for big time recruiting. He is no Slice.
As for a national title I agree....forget it! Calipari runs a travelling all star team as basically a farm team for the NBA and his formula works BUT neither he nor Kentucky will win a National title with that system either. Only 10 teams each year will have better than 10-1 odds of winning the NCAA. There are 100 top players every year and only 30 or so will sign with those schools. Lavin has failed to sign any significant number of the remaining 70. Last year's recruiting was a complete failure and we will pay the price for some time to come. When I harped about it last year I received "warnings" from mods. Ironically, some have jumped on the recruiting failure bandwagon but you are all a day late and a dollar short.
I repeat....it will not be our W-L record that saves Lavin from getting canned this year but who he signs. Had our staff been more aggressive the past two years it would not have come down to Isaiah Briscoe determining the coach's and the program's fate.

Class, agree on the national schedule.

Disagree with some of your suppositions on recruiting though.

First with regard to your point on competition for the top 100 you discount a lot of programs that are in very good positions. You only count 10 top schools as the scholarship eaters. However on a national basis there are far more programs than that, mostly in the FBS conferences, that have the ability to sell national appeal and big budgets. ACC: Duke, UNC, Louisville, Syracuse, plus about a 4-6 with equal appeal of STJ. B12: Texas, Baylor, Kansas + 4, B10: Mi St, Mich, Oh State, Indiana + 4-5, Pac12: UCLA, Az, +2-3, SEC: Ky, Fla, + 3, AAC: UConn, Memphis, +1. Other: Zags + 6-10. Those 17 schools at an average of 3 rides each per year should theoretically take up 50% of the top recruits and the 25 or so are competing with the BE for the other 50%. Much more difficult than you state but mostly because you have an inflated view of STJ's position in the national hoops picture. PS, they're #3 in flagship status in the BE behind Nova and Gtown for many reasons not all related to the mid 80's.

Frustrations about late signings aside I also disagree with your comments on Lavin's overall recruiting success. We all know how he did in 2011, though of course there were some major misses in there. Imagine if Nuri, and Norvel made/stayed on campus and lived up to their press clippings and if Mo stayed ever for 2 years. That would have been something but you can't argue with the class as signedm though maybe some of the career accomplishments. 2012 he the went out and (re)signed 2 top 100 players and a JC AA. 2013 he had one ride to give and signed the highest ranked STJ recruit since Y2K. This brings us to 2014. A major disappointment you and hopefully all other by now got that right. So he underachieved for one year, not a good thing but hardly enough to denigrate his entire body of work as a recruiter. However, given today's ebb he seemsto be back on track in 2014. Recruiting is not the problem.

Results on the court are.

 

[1and1sju]

The short answer: No.

I think Briscoe truly is considering SJU, but at the end of the day I think him and his dad are going to have to put their faith in a coach and program to take care of his blossoming career.
And I ask myself, would I entrust my young son's career to Steve Lavin? The answer is not in a million years. There are too many other paths to the NBA to take a risk on SL.

 

[Class of 72]

Sorry, I don't understand a word of Jack's post.

Sadly, I'm one of those old school guys who remember when St John's was relevant...NYC high school talent was relevant...the Big East was relevant and in all but the Mullin, Berry, Jackson, Wennington years all we could achieve was a high level of mediocrity.

We've been a turd in the toilet ever since Jarvis left.

We finally brought in a coach who was relevant. Unfortunately, everything else went down the tubes. It's killing me to lower my expectations. What we're up against is schools that contend for championships every year...coaches who do the same...being part of a conference that's second tier...playing in a city where there's a heck of a lot more to do than in the other Manhattan (Kansas). We're also up against an organization (NCAA) where our would be top rebounder has to disappear while it looks the other way as North Carolina suits up everyone whether or not they ever saw the inside of a classroom.

Lavin is worth the two million bucks because he's a great face for the university. He's no Hercules, so cleaning out the NCAA stables is out of the question. What has to happen is we stay local...play the Iona's, Manhattan's, Columbia's etc in a local conference while remaining in the Big East...build local rivalries...recruit all nyc players (and play them)...and move on. These games can be fun to watch. Lavin won't win a national championship. Neither will anyone else who gets brought in.

We could have had Calipari. We didn't want him. We got Norm. FLUSSSSSHHH.

Newsie much of what you say is true but we need a national schedule lIke Gonzaga to be relevant. We play the locals like Columbia, St. Francis, LIU, Fordham, NJIT, and of course Seton Hall. NYC will never have a Big Five like Philly so forget it!
The biggest problem is recruiting. If you forget that first year when Lavin was annointed the man who got whomever he went after his recruiting has been just average for a school that should be the flagship of the conference. The last major recruit was Rysheed Jordan who as is the case with most Lavin recruits, was a late signing. He and Chiles do not close early on anyone. Tony is a good person but much too laid back for big time recruiting. He is no Slice.
As for a national title I agree....forget it! Calipari runs a travelling all star team as basically a farm team for the NBA and his formula works BUT neither he nor Kentucky will win a National title with that system either. Only 10 teams each year will have better than 10-1 odds of winning the NCAA. There are 100 top players every year and only 30 or so will sign with those schools. Lavin has failed to sign any significant number of the remaining 70. Last year's recruiting was a complete failure and we will pay the price for some time to come. When I harped about it last year I received "warnings" from mods. Ironically, some have jumped on the recruiting failure bandwagon but you are all a day late and a dollar short.
I repeat....it will not be our W-L record that saves Lavin from getting canned this year but who he signs. Had our staff been more aggressive the past two years it would not have come down to Isaiah Briscoe determining the coach's and the program's fate.

Class, agree on the national schedule.

Disagree with some of your suppositions on recruiting though.

First with regard to your point on competition for the top 100 you discount a lot of programs that are in very good positions. You only count 10 top schools as the scholarship eaters. However on a national basis there are far more programs than that, mostly in the FBS conferences, that have the ability to sell national appeal and big budgets. ACC: Duke, UNC, Louisville, Syracuse, plus about a 4-6 with equal appeal of STJ. B12: Texas, Baylor, Kansas + 4, B10: Mi St, Mich, Oh State, Indiana + 4-5, Pac12: UCLA, Az, +2-3, SEC: Ky, Fla, + 3, AAC: UConn, Memphis, +1. Other: Zags + 6-10. Those 17 schools at an average of 3 rides each per year should theoretically take up 50% of the top recruits and the 25 or so are competing with the BE for the other 50%. Much more difficult than you state but mostly because you have an inflated view of STJ's position in the national hoops picture. PS, they're #3 in flagship status in the BE behind Nova and Gtown for many reasons not all related to the mid 80's.

Frustrations about late signings aside I also disagree with your comments on Lavin's overall recruiting success. We all know how he did in 2011, though of course there were some major misses in there. Imagine if Nuri, and Norvel made/stayed on campus and lived up to their press clippings and if Mo stayed ever for 2 years. That would have been something but you can't argue with the class as signedm though maybe some of the career accomplishments. 2012 he the went out and (re)signed 2 top 100 players and a JC AA. 2013 he had one ride to give and signed the highest ranked STJ recruit since Y2K. This brings us to 2014. A major disappointment you and hopefully all other by now got that right. So he underachieved for one year, not a good thing but hardly enough to denigrate his entire body of work as a recruiter. However, given today's ebb he seemsto be back on track in 2014. Recruiting is not the problem.

Results on the court are.

Fair enough Austour. However, IMO, resigning players is much like taking the History final over but with the advantage of having the answers. As I said, except for Jordan we have basically been average in recruiting . Nice of you to mention the big football schools but that is irrelevant to basketball recruiting. BB players will go where they get the minutes and national exposure. If you look at the past dozen or so years you find that 80% of the NCAA BB champions came from just 3 conferences (prior to the rape of the Big East).....the ACC, the Big East and the SEC. BTW, Kentucky and Calipari only won once in that period with five McDonald AA's each year that he coached there. We know about his time at Memphis with the same level of recruiting and no championship.
I also said St. John's "should be" the flagship program of the new Big East since it is located in NYC and is the home of the Big East. Radnor Pennsylvania does not role off any recruits tounge

 

[austour]

Sorry, I don't understand a word of Jack's post.

Sadly, I'm one of those old school guys who remember when St John's was relevant...NYC high school talent was relevant...the Big East was relevant and in all but the Mullin, Berry, Jackson, Wennington years all we could achieve was a high level of mediocrity.

We've been a turd in the toilet ever since Jarvis left.

We finally brought in a coach who was relevant. Unfortunately, everything else went down the tubes. It's killing me to lower my expectations. What we're up against is schools that contend for championships every year...coaches who do the same...being part of a conference that's second tier...playing in a city where there's a heck of a lot more to do than in the other Manhattan (Kansas). We're also up against an organization (NCAA) where our would be top rebounder has to disappear while it looks the other way as North Carolina suits up everyone whether or not they ever saw the inside of a classroom.

Lavin is worth the two million bucks because he's a great face for the university. He's no Hercules, so cleaning out the NCAA stables is out of the question. What has to happen is we stay local...play the Iona's, Manhattan's, Columbia's etc in a local conference while remaining in the Big East...build local rivalries...recruit all nyc players (and play them)...and move on. These games can be fun to watch. Lavin won't win a national championship. Neither will anyone else who gets brought in.

We could have had Calipari. We didn't want him. We got Norm. FLUSSSSSHHH.

Newsie much of what you say is true but we need a national schedule lIke Gonzaga to be relevant. We play the locals like Columbia, St. Francis, LIU, Fordham, NJIT, and of course Seton Hall. NYC will never have a Big Five like Philly so forget it!
The biggest problem is recruiting. If you forget that first year when Lavin was annointed the man who got whomever he went after his recruiting has been just average for a school that should be the flagship of the conference. The last major recruit was Rysheed Jordan who as is the case with most Lavin recruits, was a late signing. He and Chiles do not close early on anyone. Tony is a good person but much too laid back for big time recruiting. He is no Slice.
As for a national title I agree....forget it! Calipari runs a travelling all star team as basically a farm team for the NBA and his formula works BUT neither he nor Kentucky will win a National title with that system either. Only 10 teams each year will have better than 10-1 odds of winning the NCAA. There are 100 top players every year and only 30 or so will sign with those schools. Lavin has failed to sign any significant number of the remaining 70. Last year's recruiting was a complete failure and we will pay the price for some time to come. When I harped about it last year I received "warnings" from mods. Ironically, some have jumped on the recruiting failure bandwagon but you are all a day late and a dollar short.
I repeat....it will not be our W-L record that saves Lavin from getting canned this year but who he signs. Had our staff been more aggressive the past two years it would not have come down to Isaiah Briscoe determining the coach's and the program's fate.

Class, agree on the national schedule.

Disagree with some of your suppositions on recruiting though.

First with regard to your point on competition for the top 100 you discount a lot of programs that are in very good positions. You only count 10 top schools as the scholarship eaters. However on a national basis there are far more programs than that, mostly in the FBS conferences, that have the ability to sell national appeal and big budgets. ACC: Duke, UNC, Louisville, Syracuse, plus about a 4-6 with equal appeal of STJ. B12: Texas, Baylor, Kansas + 4, B10: Mi St, Mich, Oh State, Indiana + 4-5, Pac12: UCLA, Az, +2-3, SEC: Ky, Fla, + 3, AAC: UConn, Memphis, +1. Other: Zags + 6-10. Those 17 schools at an average of 3 rides each per year should theoretically take up 50% of the top recruits and the 25 or so are competing with the BE for the other 50%. Much more difficult than you state but mostly because you have an inflated view of STJ's position in the national hoops picture. PS, they're #3 in flagship status in the BE behind Nova and Gtown for many reasons not all related to the mid 80's.

Frustrations about late signings aside I also disagree with your comments on Lavin's overall recruiting success. We all know how he did in 2011, though of course there were some major misses in there. Imagine if Nuri, and Norvel made/stayed on campus and lived up to their press clippings and if Mo stayed ever for 2 years. That would have been something but you can't argue with the class as signedm though maybe some of the career accomplishments. 2012 he the went out and (re)signed 2 top 100 players and a JC AA. 2013 he had one ride to give and signed the highest ranked STJ recruit since Y2K. This brings us to 2014. A major disappointment you and hopefully all other by now got that right. So he underachieved for one year, not a good thing but hardly enough to denigrate his entire body of work as a recruiter. However, given today's ebb he seemsto be back on track in 2014. Recruiting is not the problem.

Results on the court are.

Fair enough Austour. However, IMO, resigning players is much like taking the History final over but with the advantage of having the answers. As I said, except for Jordan we have basically been average in recruiting . Nice of you to mention the big football schools but that is irrelevant to basketball recruiting. BB players will go where they get the minutes and national exposure. If you look at the past dozen or so years you find that 80% of the NCAA BB champions came from just 3 conferences (prior to the rape of the Big East).....the ACC, the Big East and the SEC. BTW, Kentucky and Calipari only won once in that period with five McDonald AA's each year that he coached there. We know about his time at Memphis with the same level of recruiting and no championship.
I also said St. John's "should be" the flagship program of the new Big East since it is located in NYC and is the home of the Big East. Radnor Pennsylvania does not role off any recruits tounge

If you think football is irrelevant to basketball then we probably can't continue this debate productively. The football schools will continue to get more and more of the basketball exposure as they leverage one product to the benefit of the other. The Big East is going to be one step below those conferences and certainly the lead BB programs in those conferences by virtue of economics, exposure, sponsorship, attendance and pretty much every other KPI you could possibly come up with besides TV contract (FS1 has certainly done the Big East a huge favor, whether the 2nd contract will continue that trend time will tell) and local population base/media market, but that's really immaterial since there is little money in local TV contracts and the larger population bases haven't resulted in larger average attendances. All of this will lead to recruiting advantages for the football schools that basketball schools will need to overcome. Luckily the football school still can only have 13 players per year leaving lots to spread around.

 

[austour]

Oh and football schools have won every NCAA BB Championship since 1986.

 

[Marillac]

The short answer: No.

I think Briscoe truly is considering SJU, but at the end of the day I think him and his dad are going to have to put their faith in a coach and program to take care of his blossoming career.
And I ask myself, would I entrust my young son's career to Steve Lavin? The answer is not in a million years. There are too many other paths to the NBA to take a risk on SL.

Lavin just sent two guys ranked in the 40's out of high school to the NBA--one as a frosh and one as a soph. Earl Watson, as CR reminded us often, was not a stud recruit either.

Cal has an incredibly impressive list of NBA guys, but most of them were "can't miss" types. Lavin is no slouch in this area.

 

[Class of 72]

Sorry, I don't understand a word of Jack's post.

Sadly, I'm one of those old school guys who remember when St John's was relevant...NYC high school talent was relevant...the Big East was relevant and in all but the Mullin, Berry, Jackson, Wennington years all we could achieve was a high level of mediocrity.

We've been a turd in the toilet ever since Jarvis left.

We finally brought in a coach who was relevant. Unfortunately, everything else went down the tubes. It's killing me to lower my expectations. What we're up against is schools that contend for championships every year...coaches who do the same...being part of a conference that's second tier...playing in a city where there's a heck of a lot more to do than in the other Manhattan (Kansas). We're also up against an organization (NCAA) where our would be top rebounder has to disappear while it looks the other way as North Carolina suits up everyone whether or not they ever saw the inside of a classroom.

Lavin is worth the two million bucks because he's a great face for the university. He's no Hercules, so cleaning out the NCAA stables is out of the question. What has to happen is we stay local...play the Iona's, Manhattan's, Columbia's etc in a local conference while remaining in the Big East...build local rivalries...recruit all nyc players (and play them)...and move on. These games can be fun to watch. Lavin won't win a national championship. Neither will anyone else who gets brought in.

We could have had Calipari. We didn't want him. We got Norm. FLUSSSSSHHH.

Newsie much of what you say is true but we need a national schedule lIke Gonzaga to be relevant. We play the locals like Columbia, St. Francis, LIU, Fordham, NJIT, and of course Seton Hall. NYC will never have a Big Five like Philly so forget it!
The biggest problem is recruiting. If you forget that first year when Lavin was annointed the man who got whomever he went after his recruiting has been just average for a school that should be the flagship of the conference. The last major recruit was Rysheed Jordan who as is the case with most Lavin recruits, was a late signing. He and Chiles do not close early on anyone. Tony is a good person but much too laid back for big time recruiting. He is no Slice.
As for a national title I agree....forget it! Calipari runs a travelling all star team as basically a farm team for the NBA and his formula works BUT neither he nor Kentucky will win a National title with that system either. Only 10 teams each year will have better than 10-1 odds of winning the NCAA. There are 100 top players every year and only 30 or so will sign with those schools. Lavin has failed to sign any significant number of the remaining 70. Last year's recruiting was a complete failure and we will pay the price for some time to come. When I harped about it last year I received "warnings" from mods. Ironically, some have jumped on the recruiting failure bandwagon but you are all a day late and a dollar short.
I repeat....it will not be our W-L record that saves Lavin from getting canned this year but who he signs. Had our staff been more aggressive the past two years it would not have come down to Isaiah Briscoe determining the coach's and the program's fate.

Class, agree on the national schedule.

Disagree with some of your suppositions on recruiting though.

First with regard to your point on competition for the top 100 you discount a lot of programs that are in very good positions. You only count 10 top schools as the scholarship eaters. However on a national basis there are far more programs than that, mostly in the FBS conferences, that have the ability to sell national appeal and big budgets. ACC: Duke, UNC, Louisville, Syracuse, plus about a 4-6 with equal appeal of STJ. B12: Texas, Baylor, Kansas + 4, B10: Mi St, Mich, Oh State, Indiana + 4-5, Pac12: UCLA, Az, +2-3, SEC: Ky, Fla, + 3, AAC: UConn, Memphis, +1. Other: Zags + 6-10. Those 17 schools at an average of 3 rides each per year should theoretically take up 50% of the top recruits and the 25 or so are competing with the BE for the other 50%. Much more difficult than you state but mostly because you have an inflated view of STJ's position in the national hoops picture. PS, they're #3 in flagship status in the BE behind Nova and Gtown for many reasons not all related to the mid 80's.

Frustrations about late signings aside I also disagree with your comments on Lavin's overall recruiting success. We all know how he did in 2011, though of course there were some major misses in there. Imagine if Nuri, and Norvel made/stayed on campus and lived up to their press clippings and if Mo stayed ever for 2 years. That would have been something but you can't argue with the class as signedm though maybe some of the career accomplishments. 2012 he the went out and (re)signed 2 top 100 players and a JC AA. 2013 he had one ride to give and signed the highest ranked STJ recruit since Y2K. This brings us to 2014. A major disappointment you and hopefully all other by now got that right. So he underachieved for one year, not a good thing but hardly enough to denigrate his entire body of work as a recruiter. However, given today's ebb he seemsto be back on track in 2014. Recruiting is not the problem.

Results on the court are.

Fair enough Austour. However, IMO, resigning players is much like taking the History final over but with the advantage of having the answers. As I said, except for Jordan we have basically been average in recruiting . Nice of you to mention the big football schools but that is irrelevant to basketball recruiting. BB players will go where they get the minutes and national exposure. If you look at the past dozen or so years you find that 80% of the NCAA BB champions came from just 3 conferences (prior to the rape of the Big East).....the ACC, the Big East and the SEC. BTW, Kentucky and Calipari only won once in that period with five McDonald AA's each year that he coached there. We know about his time at Memphis with the same level of recruiting and no championship.
I also said St. John's "should be" the flagship program of the new Big East since it is located in NYC and is the home of the Big East. Radnor Pennsylvania does not role off any recruits tounge

If you think football is irrelevant to basketball then we probably can't continue this debate productively. The football schools will continue to get more and more of the basketball exposure as they leverage one product to the benefit of the other. The Big East is going to be one step below those conferences and certainly the lead BB programs in those conferences by virtue of economics, exposure, sponsorship, attendance and pretty much every other KPI you could possibly come up with besides TV contract (FS1 has certainly done the Big East a huge favor, whether the 2nd contract will continue that trend time will tell) and local population base/media market, but that's really immaterial since there is little money in local TV contracts and the larger population bases haven't resulted in larger average attendances. All of this will lead to recruiting advantages for the football schools that basketball schools will need to overcome. Luckily the football school still can only have 13 players per year leaving lots to spread around.

You should have begun with your last sentence and be done with it! WHAT is a football school? Any college can play mediocre foodball. Your correlations are invalid for so many reasons. Do you really think the football money is propping up the basketball programs at UCONN, KANSAS, SYRACUSE, DUKE, INDIANA or KENTUCKY?

 

[austour]

Maybe not Kentucky.

 

[Class of 72]

Maybe not Kentucky.

.....or any of the schools I mentioned otherwise schools like Penn State, Tennessee, Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama, Notre Dame, etc. would have all been perennial basketball powers. They are not!
If it were not for tax payer funded schools ripping off their respective states' constituancies most schools, with the exception of privately funded Notre Dame, would have had to shut down their programs since the majority lose money, even with TV revenue.

 

[doodyny33]

This may sound odd, but I'm not disappointed with the recruitments of Briscoe, Diallo, and Sampson. All 3 of them are top flight players who are being courted by far better schools than St. John's. Let's be honest, it speaks to Lavin's skill level as a recruiter that they are still in it. He's obviously developed great relationships with all of them and that's why we're being talked about with the likes of Kentucky and Kansas. Yes, there are no points for 2nd place but some credit is still due.

My biggest disappointment is our lack of involvement with everyone else. We can sit here and all rip on Norm, but the fact of the matter is he brought some pretty good players here. Justin Burrell, DJ Kennedy, Paris Horne, Malik Boothe. None of these guys were studs (outside of JB ranking wise) and God knows Norm had no clue how to coach them, but they were all those mid tier Top 150 types. Now, let's be realistic and accept that Top 20 players are not likely to end up in Queens. They get the occasional one, but for the most part they end up in bigger conferences. So it is absolutely imperative that Lavin gets those middle of the pack guys. Those are the guys he needs to build around. And what concerns me is Steve never seems to be involved with any of them. Instead of getting a good solid class, we run around like a chicken without a head and sign anybody we can get (case in point, academic question marks like KT). It's all well and good that Steve wants the star (and they do make immediate differences quite often), but realism should also be playing a role too. For every Diallo you go after, there should be 2 or 3 DJ Kennedy's also on speed dial. That's just my 2 cents on it.

 

[rawdognyc]

This may sound odd, but I'm not disappointed with the recruitments of Briscoe, Diallo, and Sampson. All 3 of them are top flight players who are being courted by far better schools than St. John's. Let's be honest, it speaks to Lavin's skill level as a recruiter that they are still in it. He's obviously developed great relationships with all of them and that's why we're being talked about with the likes of Kentucky and Kansas. Yes, there are no points for 2nd place but some credit is still due.

My biggest disappointment is our lack of involvement with everyone else. We can sit here and all rip on Norm, but the fact of the matter is he brought some pretty good players here. Justin Burrell, DJ Kennedy, Paris Horne, Malik Boothe. None of these guys were studs (outside of JB ranking wise) and God knows Norm had no clue how to coach them, but they were all those mid tier Top 150 types. Now, let's be realistic and accept that Top 20 players are not likely to end up in Queens. They get the occasional one, but for the most part they end up in bigger conferences. So it is absolutely imperative that Lavin gets those middle of the pack guys. Those are the guys he needs to build around. And what concerns me is Steve never seems to be involved with any of them. Instead of getting a good solid class, we run around like a chicken without a head and sign anybody we can get (case in point, academic question marks like KT). It's all well and good that Steve wants the star (and they do make immediate differences quite often), but realism should also be playing a role too. For every Diallo you go after, there should be 2 or 3 DJ Kennedy's also on speed dial. That's just my 2 cents on it.

My concern is they don't sign any of the Big 3 and have a good season in which Rysheed and CO do really well and go pro. Who else are we going after if we don't get those studs? That's my biggest concern. For some reason though I think we are going to land them. Maybe it's just hoping that they do because I can't imagine a starting five next year of Myles, Felix, CJ, Adonis and whoever else.