Leadership, or role clarity and discipline from the coaching staff? I do not know enough about the technical X and O stuff to say what is needed but my impression of Lavin at UCLA and reinforced to a degree by CRG's detailed descriptions of their personnel is that the Bruins were always less than the sum of their parts. As a Celtic fan for more than 50 years (actually more but I deserted when Pitino was the coach) it reminds me of all the years of playing to your strength, not just Russell dominating the middle but Loscutoff giving you the choice of moving toward Russell or facing calamitous collisions (11 championships), JoJo White as a much better shooter going right, so Havlicek played off the left elbow and Nelson trailed the break on the left (two championships) and on and on. Similarly, I saw Lapchick teams of limited talent wring every possible victory from what talent they had. Maybe we are too new to know who we are yet and still lacking a point guard and without Orlando have no mass to block the middle (Obekpa and Sampson will grow and fill out but they are both reeds at present). At some point we need clear evidence of team defense and better use of picks and screens and ball reversal on offense in order to be other than less than the sum of our parts.
A Tale Of Two Teams
- Thread starter docbutler
- Start date
Moose
Well-known member
One game its one thing, one game its another. Last 2 games we have shot poorly from the field. Ironically our 2/3 best scoring option has gone silent in those games. You always need 3 legit scoring options to win. Some games (Baylor) you score so much and its back and forth you need a 4th option.
NJIT we couldn't hit FT's. USF game we hit our FT's.
Everyone was worried about the boards vs. USF. So we go and out rebound them and hold Dickerson to half his average just as Lavin mentioned they wanted to do during pre game reception. Blocks have been a strong point and we were really neutralized in that effort vs. USF. Harrison never looked for shot in 2nd until garbage time. Never got in rhythm. The recipe for a loss right there.
Every game is something new to harp on and complain about. One constant has been the zone being a nightmare.
NJIT we couldn't hit FT's. USF game we hit our FT's.
Everyone was worried about the boards vs. USF. So we go and out rebound them and hold Dickerson to half his average just as Lavin mentioned they wanted to do during pre game reception. Blocks have been a strong point and we were really neutralized in that effort vs. USF. Harrison never looked for shot in 2nd until garbage time. Never got in rhythm. The recipe for a loss right there.
Every game is something new to harp on and complain about. One constant has been the zone being a nightmare.
I smiled when Fuchia mentioned Coach Lapchick and his ability to wring out wins with limited talent teams. Joe Lapchick and it made him a realist. In the locker room after a particular stunning loss to Wake Forest (with Billy Packer at point) in the Garden, a reporter asked Coach, "to what do you atteribute this loss?" Coach answered, "We lost because Wake put the ball in the basket more than we did".
Many here are are reluctant to recognize the brilliant play of USF in this game as the reason for our poor showing. Bad teams can't shoot threes like that, guarded or unguarded, or, penetrate and execute back door cuts successfully, even in practice. Like Princeton, in the day, they are a bunch of smart players, without stars, playing within themselves as a team. They had a good night and would have had a good night against anyone. It is not the end of the world, and we will be better than that.
I'd make two points: you can't win many games playing 5 power and shooting forwards at one time; you need a point and a center. Mature, disciplined, individuals and teams will almost always make young all stars look foolish..........visit a tennis court sometime to confirm that.
Many here are are reluctant to recognize the brilliant play of USF in this game as the reason for our poor showing. Bad teams can't shoot threes like that, guarded or unguarded, or, penetrate and execute back door cuts successfully, even in practice. Like Princeton, in the day, they are a bunch of smart players, without stars, playing within themselves as a team. They had a good night and would have had a good night against anyone. It is not the end of the world, and we will be better than that.
I'd make two points: you can't win many games playing 5 power and shooting forwards at one time; you need a point and a center. Mature, disciplined, individuals and teams will almost always make young all stars look foolish..........visit a tennis court sometime to confirm that.
Zone was always reputed to produce bad defensive habits and until the NBA rule change kids who played it in college were at a disadvantage going forward. The NBA has solved the problem but they don't care about the bad habits that cost us games. Few of our guys are able to stay in front of anyone long enough to disrupt a play. We always seem a step slow against good competition and there is a general lack of defensive responsibility all around. We allow penetration and surrender open threes like it's going out of style and any team that shoots well will have the advantage against us. I think it's also a bit funny that we're being dominated by some players ie; Heslip and Doolin that Lavin probably wouldn't have recruited. This ain't a track meet, it's basketball. I always loved the fact that well coached teams often beat stacked teams and long for us to turn that corner one day. I really hope Branch provides some answers but I wonder why Greene has flopped recently. I would have thought he could contain a Doolin but poor Dom wound up chasing him to little avail. What's up with Phil? I was also a little surprised that DLo was taken out so effectively by one guy. Why don't we have a guy that can do that and prevent the one man destructions we keep running into? Here's hoping Pecora missed the game or died laughing watching it.
I see what Doc Butler is saying and I agree with him to some extent. Conversely, the young and dumb argument has much validity to it. We talk about top 100 talent etc., has anyone noticed what Kentucky has been doing lately? They're not even ranked anymore and we know that Calipari can coach. They're just extemely young and its taking them awhile to adjust.
You are dead on.
Before Moe's first game on the Orlando Magic, he was asked what has been the biggest adjustment since he played at St. John's. Moe said learning principles on defense. He said coming from college, that was the hardest thing to learn.
Now Moe was coached by an extreme tactician and schemer in Dunlap. But he was struggling to transition to the pros. And this was even before he played a game.
I watched Moe's early games against the Nets. He was constantly sagging off of his man (mainly Stackhouse) and leaving him wide open for a Corner 3. Sound familiar?
Everybody fawns over Jim Boeheim and how he's able to bring in top recruits year in and year out. Well, what happens when/if those long athletic forwards make it into the NBA? The majority of them struggle and a lot of that has to do with playing the 2-3 Zone for so long. It creates sort of a instinctual laziness so to speak.
It is nowhere near time to press any panic buttons here. However, I think the staff needs to spend a serious amount if time teaching these kids proper fundamentals, because they're lacking. I think a lot of this has to do with AAU ball quite honestly.
Less time touring the San Francisco Giants ballpark and more time in practicing teaching boxing out, rebounding drills, footwork, communication on defense, etc. it's great to have superior athletes on your team. But relying solely on your athleticism to win games is not sustainable in the long run.
Moose
Well-known member
Nice comment about the ballpark tour. Seeing the WS Trophy and getting a talk from a pro athlete is never a bad thing.
Plus they are only given a certain amount of practice time. Reading these boards between the rebounding, FT shooting, a defense they had no time to plan for Doolin
Nice comment about the ballpark tour. Seeing the WS Trophy and getting a talk from a pro athlete is never a bad thing.
Plus they are only given a certain amount of practice time. Reading these boards between the rebounding, FT shooting, a defense they had no time to plan for Doolin
They don't have to be in an actual practice to be preparing for the game.
Moose
Well-known member
Nice comment about the ballpark tour. Seeing the WS Trophy and getting a talk from a pro athlete is never a bad thing.
Plus they are only given a certain amount of practice time. Reading these boards between the rebounding, FT shooting, a defense they had no time to plan for Doolin
They don't have to be in an actual practice to be preparing for the game.
Your right.
I encourage you to check out a pre game reception with Red White if you can. To hear the coaches speak of how they prepared for the game is pretty remarkable. The routines, the habits the rituals, etc. They don't just roll the balls out there. The issues aren't foreign to the staff. They were not asked about them but specifically pointed out all the issues this board has spoke of. However preparing and executing are two different things.
some of our guys have made an interesting point regarding habits that can develop when a team is athletic and knows it. Sometimes speed and jumping ability can make a player jaded against seeking proper defensive position.
Some of our guys have gotten comfortable catching opponents from behind. It is quite the truth that our notoriety for blocking shots has blurred the team concept for defense. As noted in a previous post, we frequently see more than one player airborne with no one seeking decent box out position, and no one there for the rebound. We have been hurt repeatedly by offensive rebounds because of this. We take very few charges, and as I noted before, you could count our flops on one hand. I actually hate the flops to tell the truth, but it is part of the reality of playing defense, and any team worth it's salt, spends time working on it. Bottom line...a team has to understand that there is more to playing defense than blocks and steals, and that any team seeking to achieve anything in this game, must realize that "stops" are created through a cooperative effort from all five guys.
Some of our guys have gotten comfortable catching opponents from behind. It is quite the truth that our notoriety for blocking shots has blurred the team concept for defense. As noted in a previous post, we frequently see more than one player airborne with no one seeking decent box out position, and no one there for the rebound. We have been hurt repeatedly by offensive rebounds because of this. We take very few charges, and as I noted before, you could count our flops on one hand. I actually hate the flops to tell the truth, but it is part of the reality of playing defense, and any team worth it's salt, spends time working on it. Bottom line...a team has to understand that there is more to playing defense than blocks and steals, and that any team seeking to achieve anything in this game, must realize that "stops" are created through a cooperative effort from all five guys.
Ray Morgan
Well-known member
Generally players come out of HS lacking the defensive fundamentals. That is because you don't get youtube highlight reels for your defense. Well maybe Obekpa. It is the job of the staff to not only teach defense, but get the players to buy in. HS players spend most of their time developing offensive skills. That is why you have to be a little concerned when year after year we recruit players that can't shoot. When you spend your youth doing something for hours a day, and still are not proficient, it's unlikely that you will suddenly develop that skill in college.
Most coaches are creatures of habit like everyone else. They have a system they are comfortable with. They look to recruit players that fit into that system. Coach Lavin has focused on length, quickness, jumping ability, the ability to run the floor. Many of the targets he went after he got. This team is just what he was looking for, minus a few that got away and the qualifying issues. If this doesn't work, then blame the coach. I'm not giving up hope because of one bad game. We got exposed by a team that was ready and very motivated. For teams in the lesser conferences, beating a Big East team, even an un-ranked one, is huge. We know we have great athletes with holes in their games. Except for the 5 or so top teams, the rest of the Big East schools have plenty of holes as well.
Nice comment about the ballpark tour. Seeing the WS Trophy and getting a talk from a pro athlete is never a bad thing.
Plus they are only given a certain amount of practice time. Reading these boards between the rebounding, FT shooting, a defense they had no time to plan for Doolin
As much as I think the touring in San Francisco was in its own way educational, I do think it took the edge off the team in reference to preparing for the game. I recall John Thompson years back bringing his teams to the NCAA tournament and putting them in hotels away from the arena and media so that they could focus on the game to be played. I know the tournament has a different level of excitement and tension than an early game against a non-conference opponent but with the condition this program has been in, winning has to be a top priority. It is time to turn things around and not just around but totally around. No more tours. These players must practice, prepare and WIN WIN WIN
Moose
Well-known member
Nice comment about the ballpark tour. Seeing the WS Trophy and getting a talk from a pro athlete is never a bad thing.
Plus they are only given a certain amount of practice time. Reading these boards between the rebounding, FT shooting, a defense they had no time to plan for Doolin
As much as I think the touring in San Francisco was in its own way educational, I do think it took the edge off the team in reference to preparing for the game. I recall John Thompson years back bringing his teams to the NCAA tournament and putting them in hotels away from the arena and media so that they could focus on the game to be played. I know the tournament has a different level of excitement and tension than an early game against a non-conference opponent but with the condition this program has been in, winning has to be a top priority. It is time to turn things around and not just around but totally around. No more tours. These players must practice, prepare and WIN WIN WIN
You got it coach! I'm sure after visiting Alcatraz they said winning this game is nothing. We got to see a National Park!
How is your Vanderbilt squad looking this year?