Game to game I get as frustrated as the next guy because that is the nature of being a serious and long time fan. Having said that, many posters who preached patience absolutely have none. No coach, outside of Calipari throwing around boatloads of $, could have turned this mess around by now. I am not hear to heap praise on Mullin because it is not warranted but what is warranted is that he and his staff put together a reasonably credible roster at later than the 11th hour last year, have brought in 2 legitimate D1 guards and several other players who are legitimate contributors (Owens, Ahmed, Mussini, Ellison) and installed a system of play on offense, like that system or not. He and staff have formed real connections with major AAU and high school programs. They have two potentially more than just contributing players waiting for next year and a nationally ranked big man signed. Yes, our defense can be porous but ask any coach why most young players don't get immediate playing time even when it seems warranted, and the reason is almost universally, they have to learn how to play defense at this level. And what are we.....very, very, young! I don't know where this is going, no one does, but I don't agree with the gloom and doom, not yet. The expectations placed on this journey are completely unrealistic and as I have stated before, give second thoughts to the myth of the sophisticated NY sports fan.
A different perspective
- Thread starter beast of the east
- Start date
I love the Johnnies, but each day am becoming more realistic & grounded about the program. At this point I am thankful my father took me to see the Tony Jackson teams, attended SJU during competent era with guys like Johnny Warren, Carmine C, Richie Jackson & subsequently saw the Mullin, Sealy & Artest teams up close. I obviously want to see a consistent, competitive program, but am not going to drive myself nuts in the process.
Mullin deserves a fair amount of time to turn the ship around. If he can't resurrect our "tired" program, so be it. This program is not the "sleeping giant" so often referenced by fans like me desperate for success & spoiled by some historic relevance. Hopefully he surprises us.
Where's my Nova hat?
Well said. Eventually a coach has to stand on his own two feet but so much of it early is driven by the situation the coach inherits. Obvious enough, but same coach is going to look a lot different taking over Duke v. taking over a project in years 1-3.
Becomes harder to be mindful of it as a little time goes by and there are sometimes significant bumps in the road, but this Staff was and is squarely in the latter category. Starting close to from scratch.
Realize the infrastructural differences between Indiana and SJU, but in 2008 that was not a program in good shape on a number of fronts, perhaps in part a result of navigating the waters post their own longtime coach. Tom Crean went 6-25/1-17, 10-21/4-14, and 12-20/3-15 before he broke through - he's made 3 Sweet 16s in the 5 years since. And this is an established HC, who already had one reclamation project under his belt, that could have gotten a lot of premier jobs.
Only noting this as an example where it didn't happen overnight, but when it did happen it happened big. Can only imagine what the Indiana boards looked like in year 3 when he won 3 games in conference vs. the following year when he won 27 games. Same exact coach, just took him (a not unreasonable amount of) time to get there.
Have certainly seen things that are concerning, but as things develop this year it's clear to me that what this Staff needs more than anything is time because of the situation they inherited. Focusing on the good, in only a year on job they delivered 3 players (Ponds, Lovett, Ahmed) better than anyone on retained roster or recruited in rushed, partial year, and secured 2 transfers from the type of programs we've almost never if ever gotten transfers from, + a Top 40 7 footer. If they have 2 more years at even 70-80% of that, we'll probably get there. How high "there" is will start to depend more on more granular aspects we've all seen and been discussion, but for time being think this Staff just needs more full and fair opportunity to acquire a higher level of talent.
Doesn't excuse losses like yesterday, but on macro level think that's where we are.
Nice job!
TX Redman
Well-known member
"The best thing about freshmen is that they become sophomores" - Al McGuire.
We are only 1 yr and 11 games into what is at least a 3-4 year project. Let's continue to support the team and staff in a constructive manner. The wins might be few and far between in the Big East but I bet we pull off one or two upsets along the way.
We are only 1 yr and 11 games into what is at least a 3-4 year project. Let's continue to support the team and staff in a constructive manner. The wins might be few and far between in the Big East but I bet we pull off one or two upsets along the way.
I love the Johnnies, but each day am becoming more realistic & grounded about the program. At this point I am thankful my father took me to see the Tony Jackson teams, attended SJU during competent era with guys like Johnny Warren, Carmine C, Richie Jackson & subsequently saw the Mullin, Sealy & Artest teams up close. I obviously want to see a consistent, competitive program, but am not going to drive myself nuts in the process.
Mullin deserves a fair amount of time to turn the ship around. If he can't resurrect our "tired" program, so be it. This program is not the "sleeping giant" so often referenced by fans like me desperate for success & spoiled by some historic relevance. Hopefully he surprises us.
Where's my Nova hat?
Well said. Eventually a coach has to stand on his own two feet but so much of it early is driven by the situation the coach inherits. Obvious enough, but same coach is going to look a lot different taking over Duke v. taking over a project in years 1-3.
Becomes harder to be mindful of it as a little time goes by and there are sometimes significant bumps in the road, but this Staff was and is squarely in the latter category. Starting close to from scratch.
Realize the infrastructural differences between Indiana and SJU, but in 2008 that was not a program in good shape on a number of fronts, perhaps in part a result of navigating the waters post their own longtime coach. Tom Crean went 6-25/1-17, 10-21/4-14, and 12-20/3-15 before he broke through - he's made 3 Sweet 16s in the 5 years since. And this is an established HC, who already had one reclamation project under his belt, that could have gotten a lot of premier jobs.
Only noting this as an example where it didn't happen overnight, but when it did happen it happened big. Can only imagine what the Indiana boards looked like in year 3 when he won 3 games in conference vs. the following year when he won 27 games. Same exact coach, just took him (a not unreasonable amount of) time to get there.
Have certainly seen things that are concerning, but as things develop this year it's clear to me that what this Staff needs more than anything is time because of the situation they inherited. Focusing on the good, in only a year on job they delivered 3 players (Ponds, Lovett, Ahmed) better than anyone on retained roster or recruited in rushed, partial year, and secured 2 transfers from the type of programs we've almost never if ever gotten transfers from, + a Top 40 7 footer. If they have 2 more years at even 70-80% of that, we'll probably get there. How high "there" is will start to depend more on more granular aspects we've all seen and been discussion, but for time being think this Staff just needs more full and fair opportunity to acquire a higher level of talent.
Doesn't excuse losses like yesterday, but on macro level think that's where we are.
Nice job!
Would also add these kids seem to really play hard and like each other. Invested despite challenging circumstances which is admirable, especially given that losing is new to some of them on a basketball court.
As others have noted regarding likely highs and lows this year, to Beast's point about perspective am enjoying watching that part of this team despite very uneven play. In addition to normal support for team, this is kind of group I can see people really rooting for to have things go their way next year and the year after.
As just one example, Mussini went from first option on team to bench role behind 2 first year guards (not easy to accept even if clearly justified), hasn't made a peep that I'm aware of, and recovered from a couple of early rocky games to have one of the better, more defined roles on the team. Hope he stays with us four years, great and easy kid to root for.
Coaster1955
Member
Agree...hate the 6:30 start times.
Moon Mullen
Active member
As a season ticket holder, I also hate the 6:30 starts even though I
don't attend all of the campus games. But if the trade off is every game is televised I'll take it
every time.
don't attend all of the campus games. But if the trade off is every game is televised I'll take it
every time.
Class of 72
Active member
Now now Fun! LIU hasn't been relevant since the Claire Bee era. In fact, going back any further than the 50's should be like comparing Alabama before and after the abolition of slavery. That era of basketball is not relevant to any current discussion of the sport. I'm not sure our racist past can be considered "storied". The lily white and storied era of LIU is not the issue here. Let's keep the discussion from the 60's forward.
From that period through the founding of the Big East St. John's was a nationally recognized basketball powerhouse regardless whether LIU won two national championships in my father's era. We were NCAA worthy perennially.
For the past 20 years we have paid competitive salaries to coaches and in the past 6 years budgeted in the millions for that staff. Fans and alums rightfully expect a return on their investment. If it seems acceptable to you that we have sunk to the bottom of the now smaller Big East then you should become a trustee because the management and creativity it takes to be a competitive Big East program has been sorely lacking and the contracts negotiated with the Lavins and Mullins border on the criminal. In both cases we hired coaches with so much rust while paying BMW salaries that were that to happen in the business world heads would role. The provincial way the two Vincention schools have approached their commitment to the Big East Conference deserves expulsion discussion.
From your perch in Albany you obviously are not shelling out bucks for D2 level college basketball at super inflated NYC prices. I recently refused to donate any further to the university and received over 20 calls from various levels at SJ. My answer was simple. After writing 5 figure checks and seeing our academic standing deteriorate and the mind boggling decisions being made in a basketball program that rarely had down years over a 40 year period in the "modern" era, I decided to send my money elsewhere rather than to my alma mater.
Now that's not because I felt entitled to a Big East Championship but simply because I felt being competitive as opposed to acting out of desperation was no longer in the SJ vocabulary. If you don't expect to be good and competitive then you have a loser mentality. If you are paying millions in salaries and are not good or competitive over a 7 year period then that is plain mismanagement. Donors are stockholders who prop up that management. The current management is more focused on real estate fire sales and maintaining tuition based income at the expense of gowing academically and in the new and emerging Big East Conference being satisfied with mediocre results.
Some here don't need smelling salt but are starting to push back when, from asking for donations to outlandish ticket prices, it feels like the braintrusts are content with rubbing salt into our wounds.
Class of 72
Active member
Thanks for keeping some of us grounded in our expectations.
Anyone who is frustrated deserves to be and some are getting tired of the hype. Yesterday's noon game in an empty arena just highlighted the reality of how irrelevant we have become. 90% of the fans who showed up came to watch an out of town team with an unrivaled tradition.
Much of my, and a few other's, negativity is just as much sour grapes on having to witness it firsthand.
Some of what is happening was not expected such as the regression of Yakwe and the disappearance of Sima.
The slow adaption of Bashir to this level has also been a contributor to our now lowered expectations.
The fragility of the team was quickly exposed as soon as Lovett and Sima rendered us a team with no depth.
Penn State at the Garden should not have been a critical game but it is and once again we are being scheduled as a contractual favor to the Big East rather than as the home town headliner.
Frustrating.
Here's some additional context. Comparing us on paper to:
-Seton Hall-the first Whitehead year
-St John's: the Harkless year
Even with a healthy Lovett, our current talent (on paper) ranks behind each of those rosters. Without a healthy Lovett, we're well behind each of those rosters in terms of talent.
Neither of those teams came remotely close to making the NIT. Why should our expectations today be any higher?
-Seton Hall-the first Whitehead year
-St John's: the Harkless year
Even with a healthy Lovett, our current talent (on paper) ranks behind each of those rosters. Without a healthy Lovett, we're well behind each of those rosters in terms of talent.
Neither of those teams came remotely close to making the NIT. Why should our expectations today be any higher?
beast of the east
Active member
That season was a nightmare. Malik Stith turned out to be so not a D1 player that Dunlap didn't play him even after the wheels fell off, prompting Stith to quit.
My perspective on St. John's comes from the 62-63 season and watching Coach Lapchick fully engaged with a team that had Donny Burke and Donny Burke and... The dignity of the man and the respect he gave to his under talented team has shaped my view of all basketball, and probably a lot of other things, to this day.
Some quick thoughts based on attending all the "home" (including Barclays) games and watching the rest on the tube. This thread seemed as good a spot as any.
- Delaware State was a disaster, and I'm fine with putting that on the coaches. The team was not ready to play at all, and the first half substitution pattern showed an over confidence that is not warranted with this roster. In general, I am of the belief that you blow a team out first and then experiment, and Delaware State was given way too much time to hang around.
- The line for LIU was out of whack and I expected a tight game. Sure, we have more talent than them, but most fans think our talent level is much higher than it is, and the talent is young. I wasn't blown away by the loss, this team can lose to anyone when our guards are not having good games and we had no Lovett and Ponds was only OK on Sunday.
- Mullin is much more engaged this year, but the optics of the in-game coaching are still difficult to watch. I joked with my wife about our new coach, "Coach Lovett", during the last three games as the staff spent most timeouts leaving the huddle to him while they talked to themselves. I check this out every home game and have not found one team we play yet where it takes as long for the coaches to walk over and engage the players. However the whiteboard stuff is way overrated and I find our coaches timeout "style" more weird than alarming.
-People pick on Richmond, but I see him spending a lot of time counseling players on the bench when they come out of games, and those players seem very interested in what he has to say. I don't see him as a problem, and for everyone pining for some has-been on the bench, the team is playing one coach short. Slice buy out or not the school needs to pony up a few more bucks at the end of the year to add that guy. It would not be an extravagant cost and worrying about that money is like buying a new car and worrying about the cost of tires on the car.
-When I look at our league the teams that are doing well are not nabbing higher rated players than the type we brought in this year (Ponds, Freud, Bash) or will next year (the two transfers and Brown.) Perhaps Villanova is recruiting at a higher level, but not Creighton, Providence, Xavier, or Butler. What they have that we do not is upperclassmen.
-I am going to respect not bashing on any kids, as has been mentioned here before. But the idea that none of our kids are improving is a weird one to me. Mussini looks better, and so does Ellison. Improvement is incremental. And it doesn't take a wild imagination to figure that Owens and Lovett improved their games during their time with the program last year.
-The defense is bad, but the biggest problem is rebounding. The team statistics don't tell the full story on how bad it is as the only way for the team to survive is for all five players to hang around and rebound which eliminates any chance for easy fast break buckets. Speed is not the key to transition baskets, rebounding is, as you need the ball to score. The rebounding issue also creates second and third chance baskets making the shaky defense appear even worse. By the way, Freudenberg understands the angles needed to find the basketball and has rebounding ability. I'm not predicting a superstar, but anyone writing him off as a wasted scholarship will be proven wrong.
-The offense looks good to me, and sure we will see what happens in conference. But this team can shoot and score and the style is fun to watch. I will take this over a boring walk it up team any time.
Overall the coaches picked us ninth this year which looks about right. I had hoped the team was slightly better than that but it was nothing more than hope as I hasn't seen many of this years group ever play - with a happy exception being the wonderful Ponds. So far, other than Delaware State Day, I have seen some positives every game to keep the hope alive. Hiring Mullin was a swing for the fences move by a school that has been trying to work out walks for 25 years. For every home run power guys strike out a lot, so I'm aware this might go very awry. But I'm willing to watch it unfold, and understand why the move was made. College basketball is a business, and a SJU team that wins is better for business, but a SJU team that wins with Mullin at the helm would be the best possible scenario for business. As for if he can succeed, I have no idea, it's too soon for me to say. Waiting it out might be frustrating, but I don't see any other viable alternative.
- Delaware State was a disaster, and I'm fine with putting that on the coaches. The team was not ready to play at all, and the first half substitution pattern showed an over confidence that is not warranted with this roster. In general, I am of the belief that you blow a team out first and then experiment, and Delaware State was given way too much time to hang around.
- The line for LIU was out of whack and I expected a tight game. Sure, we have more talent than them, but most fans think our talent level is much higher than it is, and the talent is young. I wasn't blown away by the loss, this team can lose to anyone when our guards are not having good games and we had no Lovett and Ponds was only OK on Sunday.
- Mullin is much more engaged this year, but the optics of the in-game coaching are still difficult to watch. I joked with my wife about our new coach, "Coach Lovett", during the last three games as the staff spent most timeouts leaving the huddle to him while they talked to themselves. I check this out every home game and have not found one team we play yet where it takes as long for the coaches to walk over and engage the players. However the whiteboard stuff is way overrated and I find our coaches timeout "style" more weird than alarming.
-People pick on Richmond, but I see him spending a lot of time counseling players on the bench when they come out of games, and those players seem very interested in what he has to say. I don't see him as a problem, and for everyone pining for some has-been on the bench, the team is playing one coach short. Slice buy out or not the school needs to pony up a few more bucks at the end of the year to add that guy. It would not be an extravagant cost and worrying about that money is like buying a new car and worrying about the cost of tires on the car.
-When I look at our league the teams that are doing well are not nabbing higher rated players than the type we brought in this year (Ponds, Freud, Bash) or will next year (the two transfers and Brown.) Perhaps Villanova is recruiting at a higher level, but not Creighton, Providence, Xavier, or Butler. What they have that we do not is upperclassmen.
-I am going to respect not bashing on any kids, as has been mentioned here before. But the idea that none of our kids are improving is a weird one to me. Mussini looks better, and so does Ellison. Improvement is incremental. And it doesn't take a wild imagination to figure that Owens and Lovett improved their games during their time with the program last year.
-The defense is bad, but the biggest problem is rebounding. The team statistics don't tell the full story on how bad it is as the only way for the team to survive is for all five players to hang around and rebound which eliminates any chance for easy fast break buckets. Speed is not the key to transition baskets, rebounding is, as you need the ball to score. The rebounding issue also creates second and third chance baskets making the shaky defense appear even worse. By the way, Freudenberg understands the angles needed to find the basketball and has rebounding ability. I'm not predicting a superstar, but anyone writing him off as a wasted scholarship will be proven wrong.
-The offense looks good to me, and sure we will see what happens in conference. But this team can shoot and score and the style is fun to watch. I will take this over a boring walk it up team any time.
Overall the coaches picked us ninth this year which looks about right. I had hoped the team was slightly better than that but it was nothing more than hope as I hasn't seen many of this years group ever play - with a happy exception being the wonderful Ponds. So far, other than Delaware State Day, I have seen some positives every game to keep the hope alive. Hiring Mullin was a swing for the fences move by a school that has been trying to work out walks for 25 years. For every home run power guys strike out a lot, so I'm aware this might go very awry. But I'm willing to watch it unfold, and understand why the move was made. College basketball is a business, and a SJU team that wins is better for business, but a SJU team that wins with Mullin at the helm would be the best possible scenario for business. As for if he can succeed, I have no idea, it's too soon for me to say. Waiting it out might be frustrating, but I don't see any other viable alternative.
we are sju
Active member
I agree newspaper or ESPN generally will tell you what channel game is on. But in fairness to some we were on some weird channel for the Atlantis tourney.
As far as going to games no one should go to Queens unless they have to. (Met games, Wedding for close family member or friend. Funeral / wake for same or someone you hate to confirm they are dead.)
Going to 4 or 5 MSG games a year drinking $12 beers to watch us lose more than satisfies the appropriate quota for being a fan as far as I am concerned.