A different perspective

[beast of the east]

I was sitting at the Fordham game with my wife when she said something and a lightbulb went off. From our courtside seats where you can see our guys close up, she exclaimed observing halftime layups while our guys were joking, laughs, and having fun getting loose for the 2nd half, "My gosh. They are all kids."

Sure enough, they are. All of them. Freudenberg looks like he could be the altar server at the 830 mass, Ponds as well. Amar is the same age as my son, and like Mussini and Yakwe, a year younger they are living and playing an ocean away from home. Studying too. Not singling out these guys, but they are all a bunch of kids, all doing their best to wear our colors well and represent St. John's. They appear to be happy to be here, and already express how much they love the school and each other.

When she said that I was 100 times more likely to cut them some slack, be happy that we have a few very talented kids, and to a man (ahem) all very nice kids. They may or may not have the ability to put it together and win 13-14 games, but if we change our perspective a little, maybe we can enjoy them just the same.

FWIW, kudos to the horde of student fans, some of whom are starting to dress in red dress suits, pressed white shirts, and neatly knotted ties. Looks pretty cool, and they also seem to have a ton of school spirit.

 

[bamafan]

I was sitting at the Fordham game with my wife when she said something and a lightbulb went off. From our courtside seats where you can see our guys close up, she exclaimed observing halftime layups while our guys were joking, laughs, and having fun getting loose for the 2nd half, "My gosh. They are all kids."

Sure enough, they are. All of them. Freudenberg looks like he could be the altar server at the 830 mass, Ponds as well. Amar is the same age as my son, and like Mussini and Yakwe, a year younger they are living and playing an ocean away from home. Studying too. Not singling out these guys, but they are all a bunch of kids, all doing their best to wear our colors well and represent St. John's. They appear to be happy to be here, and already express how much they love the school and each other.

When she said that I was 100 times more likely to cut them some slack, be happy that we have a few very talented kids, and to a man (ahem) all very nice kids. They may or may not have the ability to put it together and win 13-14 games, but if we change our perspective a little, maybe we can enjoy them just the same.

FWIW, kudos to the horde of student fans, some of whom are starting to dress in red dress suits, pressed white shirts, and neatly knotted ties. Looks pretty cool, and they also seem to have a ton of school spirit.

OK why don't you have a nice big holiday party and invite the team and us posters? At least then we can all have a good time. Just don't charge $85 a ticket.

 

[Ray Morgan]

The realist in me knows that the team is young, and that the players are doing their best. The fan in me is sad tonight after watching another example of how far we have to go. Sadder still in doubting if we will ever get there. Yes, it's just a game, and there a lot of things in life more important. But for those of us who spent our youth in Alumni Hall and the Garden, and crashed practice and got to games early to see the freshman team play, I never imagined the program could end up where they are today. Mahoney, Jarvis, the interim coaching staff, Norm, Lavin and perhaps the final hope, Chris Mullin. It's starting to look like we are cursed.

 

[ras]

The realist in me knows that the team is young, and that the players are doing their best. The fan in me is sad tonight after watching another example of how far we have to go. Sadder still in doubting if we will ever get there. Yes, it's just a game, and there a lot of things in life more important. But for those of us who spent our youth in Alumni Hall and the Garden, and crashed practice and got to games early to see the freshman team play, I never imagined the program could end up where they are today. Mahoney, Jarvis, the interim coaching staff, Norm, Lavin and perhaps the final hope, Chris Mullin. It's starting to look like we are cursed.

It looked liked we were cursed a while ago.

 

[Class of 72]

The realist in me knows that the team is young, and that the players are doing their best. The fan in me is sad tonight after watching another example of how far we have to go. Sadder still in doubting if we will ever get there. Yes, it's just a game, and there a lot of things in life more important. But for those of us who spent our youth in Alumni Hall and the Garden, and crashed practice and got to games early to see the freshman team play, I never imagined the program could end up where they are today. Mahoney, Jarvis, the interim coaching staff, Norm, Lavin and perhaps the final hope, Chris Mullin. It's starting to look like we are cursed.

Ray, I feel for all of us who have been living in the glory of the past. It is more bad decisions than a curse. Looking at Mullin as the final hope was something I've heard during the love fest with his hire. Why would hiring a man who never coached a day in his life anywhere be considered a final hope?
If we had hired Shaka Smart, Gregg Marshall or even Tubby Smith I would have said that for over $2 million it would have been a final hope. We shall see if Mullin can have any more success with talent than Brian Mahoney but the big white hope he is not and many here will tell you he may be the last big gamble by a university so inept at running a Big East program in the last 25 years that has been matched only by fellow Vincention school DePaul.
That gamble may yet pay off if Mullin and company can sign talented college ready players. If, on the other hand, he fails to get the players he will suffer the same end as Steve Lavin whose rep ultimately cost him recruits and his job.
I think we have very little choice but to wait and see if he can deliver key recruits. From the current group I expect more departures and Matt better be hitting the JC and transfer market hard.

 

[otis]

Crude insults versus fair comment.

It is fair to comment on a player's performance but not hurl personal insults at a player.

The St. John's players (largely being 18, 19, 20, 21 year old kids) should not be the subject of crude personal insults (see "classy" poster in another thread that called a St. John's player "garbage"). You can be certain the St. John's players, recruits and their parents read Redmen.com, or are otherwise familiar with the ignorant insults recorded by the anonymous posters who by and large lacked the talent to sit on a college team's bench.

I hope those reading this message get a grip on their insults towards the St. John's players. Go ahead and criticize the Administration and coaches (they are adults who get paid), or the players performances all you want but when you get personal in attacks against a 19 year old kid then you are embarrassing yourself.

 

[mjmaherjr]

Crude insults versus fair comment.

It is fair to comment on a player's performance but not hurl personal insults at a player.

The St. John's players (largely being 18, 19, 20, 21 year old kids) should not be the subject of crude personal insults (see "classy" poster in another thread that called a St. John's player "garbage"). You can be certain the St. John's players, recruits and their parents read Redmen.com, or are otherwise familiar with the ignorant insults recorded by the anonymous posters who by and large lacked the talent to sit on oak college team bench.

I hope those reading this message get a grip on their insults towards the St. John's players. Go ahead and icriticize the Administration and coaches ( they are adults who get paid), or the players performances all you want but when you get personal in attacks against a 19 year old kid then you are embarrassing yourself.

great post !!! I'd give you a +1k if i could. We all need to take a step back and think before we post sometimes

 

[beast of the east]

Crude insults versus fair comment.

It is fair to comment on a player's performance but not hurl personal insults at a player.

The St. John's players (largely being 18, 19, 20, 21 year old kids) should not be the subject of crude personal insults (see "classy" poster in another thread that called a St. John's player "garbage"). You can be certain the St. John's players, recruits and their parents read Redmen.com, or are otherwise familiar with the ignorant insults recorded by the anonymous posters who by and large lacked the talent to sit on oak college team bench.

I hope those reading this message get a grip on their insults towards the St. John's players. Go ahead and icriticize the Administration and coaches ( they are adults who get paid), or the players performances all you want but when you get personal in attacks against a 19 year old kid then you are embarrassing yourself.

great post !!! I'd give you a +1k if i could. We all need to take a step back and think before we post sometimes

Since I started the thread with the same sentiment, could you give me a measly +582? If anything it would give my admirers 582 reasons to click minus.

 

[paultzman]

I love the Johnnies, but each day am becoming more realistic & grounded about the program. At this point I am thankful my father took me to see the Tony Jackson teams, attended SJU during competent era with guys like Johnny Warren, Carmine C, Richie Jackson & subsequently saw the Mullin, Sealy & Artest teams up close. I obviously want to see a consistent, competitive program, but am not going to drive myself nuts in the process.

Mullin deserves a fair amount of time to turn the ship around. If he can't resurrect our "tired" program, so be it. This program is not the "sleeping giant" so often referenced by fans like me desperate for success & spoiled by some historic relevance. Hopefully he surprises us.

Where's my Nova hat?

 

[cappy105]

Crude insults versus fair comment.

It is fair to comment on a player's performance but not hurl personal insults at a player.

The St. John's players (largely being 18, 19, 20, 21 year old kids) should not be the subject of crude personal insults (see "classy" poster in another thread that called a St. John's player "garbage"). You can be certain the St. John's players, recruits and their parents read Redmen.com, or are otherwise familiar with the ignorant insults recorded by the anonymous posters who by and large lacked the talent to sit on oak college team bench.

I hope those reading this message get a grip on their insults towards the St. John's players. Go ahead and icriticize the Administration and coaches ( they are adults who get paid), or the players performances all you want but when you get personal in attacks against a 19 year old kid then you are embarrassing yourself.

great post !!! I'd give you a +1k if i could. We all need to take a step back and think before we post sometimes

Since I started the thread with the same sentiment, could you give me a measly +582? If anything it would give my admirers 582 reasons to click minus.

i got you...plus 1

 

[paultzman]

I was sitting at the Fordham game with my wife when she said something and a lightbulb went off. From our courtside seats where you can see our guys close up, she exclaimed observing halftime layups while our guys were joking, laughs, and having fun getting loose for the 2nd half, "My gosh. They are all kids."

Sure enough, they are. All of them. Freudenberg looks like he could be the altar server at the 830 mass, Ponds as well. Amar is the same age as my son, and like Mussini and Yakwe, a year younger they are living and playing an ocean away from home. Studying too. Not singling out these guys, but they are all a bunch of kids, all doing their best to wear our colors well and represent St. John's. They appear to be happy to be here, and already express how much they love the school and each other.

When she said that I was 100 times more likely to cut them some slack, be happy that we have a few very talented kids, and to a man (ahem) all very nice kids. They may or may not have the ability to put it together and win 13-14 games, but if we change our perspective a little, maybe we can enjoy them just the same.

FWIW, kudos to the horde of student fans, some of whom are starting to dress in red dress suits, pressed white shirts, and neatly knotted ties. Looks pretty cool, and they also seem to have a ton of school spirit.

Btw, ran into our esteemed photographer NYC at CA, who introduced me to several of the student fans you referenced. Must say they were really nice, enthusiastic guys.

 

[fun]

I love the Johnnies, but each day am becoming more realistic & grounded about the program. At this point I am thankful my father took me to see the Tony Jackson teams, attended SJU during competent era with guys like Johnny Warren, Carmine C, Richie Jackson & subsequently saw the Mullin, Sealy & Artest teams up close. I obviously want to see a consistent, competitive program, but am not going to drive myself nuts in the process.

Mullin deserves a fair amount of time to turn the ship around. If he can't resurrect our "tired" program, so be it. This program is not the "sleeping giant" so often referenced by fans like me desperate for success & spoiled by some historic relevance. Hopefully he surprises us.

The sense of entitlement among SJU fans is astounding. They think that because Saint John's used to be good in the past they deserve to be good in the present and therefore will be. They say well we used to beat LIU all the time so we're going to beat them now and then after a loss they need smelling salts. The fact is that LIU has a more storied basketball history than Saint John's - two national championships to none - and were led for 20 years by a coach who makes Joe Lapchick look like Glen Braica. And yet anyone who called LIU a sleeping giant would rightfully be sent to Bellevue.

 

[Muse]

Much needed thread. I have had to exercise self control to withhold attacking posters who find self enhancement by criticizing kids who are blameless and doing their very best. In my opinion those posters have fouled up this site

 

[ManhattAn1]

Great Points! Kids should always be off limits. They are not getting paid and they all seem like good kids.

 

[Knight]

I love the Johnnies, but each day am becoming more realistic & grounded about the program. At this point I am thankful my father took me to see the Tony Jackson teams, attended SJU during competent era with guys like Johnny Warren, Carmine C, Richie Jackson & subsequently saw the Mullin, Sealy & Artest teams up close. I obviously want to see a consistent, competitive program, but am not going to drive myself nuts in the process.

Mullin deserves a fair amount of time to turn the ship around. If he can't resurrect our "tired" program, so be it. This program is not the "sleeping giant" so often referenced by fans like me desperate for success & spoiled by some historic relevance. Hopefully he surprises us.

Where's my Nova hat?

t

Another great post!
I hope the smiley in the last line had the tongue in cheek firmly planted.

 

[monte]

I love the Johnnies, but each day am becoming more realistic & grounded about the program. At this point I am thankful my father took me to see the Tony Jackson teams, attended SJU during competent era with guys like Johnny Warren, Carmine C, Richie Jackson & subsequently saw the Mullin, Sealy & Artest teams up close. I obviously want to see a consistent, competitive program, but am not going to drive myself nuts in the process.

Mullin deserves a fair amount of time to turn the ship around. If he can't resurrect our "tired" program, so be it. This program is not the "sleeping giant" so often referenced by fans like me desperate for success & spoiled by some historic relevance. Hopefully he surprises us.

Where's my Nova hat?

If I caught you wearing a Nova hat I'd rip it right off your head! In all seriousness, its not just our historic relevance that has me feeling that we are still a sleeping giant, its our location in NYC, the Big East conference, MSG, etc. I have long said that we are one good HC away from being back to relevance. If Lavin had been able to establish NYC area ties and hadn't stopped working, he'd still be here and we'd likely back in the top 25 consistantly. Like most everyone on here, I have no clue if Chris is the answer, but I'm not about to bail on him and the team now. And if he turns out to not be the answer, maybe a guy like Danny Hurley is. Its clear we can get talent to come here, so thats not the issue. Now we need to know that we have a coaching staff in place that knows how to develop and manage that talent. I hope like hell it's Chris and his staff, but if it's not there will be another HC that will awaken this sleeping giant.

 

[SJU1512]

I love the Johnnies, but each day am becoming more realistic & grounded about the program. At this point I am thankful my father took me to see the Tony Jackson teams, attended SJU during competent era with guys like Johnny Warren, Carmine C, Richie Jackson & subsequently saw the Mullin, Sealy & Artest teams up close. I obviously want to see a consistent, competitive program, but am not going to drive myself nuts in the process.

Mullin deserves a fair amount of time to turn the ship around. If he can't resurrect our "tired" program, so be it. This program is not the "sleeping giant" so often referenced by fans like me desperate for success & spoiled by some historic relevance. Hopefully he surprises us.

Where's my Nova hat?

Well said. Eventually a coach has to stand on his own two feet but so much of it early is driven by the situation the coach inherits. Obvious enough, but same coach is going to look a lot different taking over Duke v. taking over a project in years 1-3.

Becomes harder to be mindful of it as a little time goes by and there are sometimes significant bumps in the road, but this Staff was and is squarely in the latter category. Starting close to from scratch.

Realize the infrastructural differences between Indiana and SJU, but in 2008 that was not a program in good shape on a number of fronts, perhaps in part a result of navigating the waters post their own longtime coach. Tom Crean went 6-25/1-17, 10-21/4-14, and 12-20/3-15 before he broke through - he's made 3 Sweet 16s in the 5 years since. And this is an established HC, who already had one reclamation project under his belt, that could have gotten a lot of premier jobs.

Only noting this as an example where it didn't happen overnight, but when it did happen it happened big. Can only imagine what the Indiana boards looked like in year 3 when he won 3 games in conference vs. the following year when he won 27 games. Same exact coach, just took him (a not unreasonable amount of) time to get there.

Have certainly seen things that are concerning, but as things develop this year it's clear to me that what this Staff needs more than anything is time because of the situation they inherited.

Focusing on the good, in only a year on job they delivered 3 players (Ponds, Lovett, Ahmed) better than anyone on retained roster or recruited in rushed, partial year, and secured 2 transfers from the type of programs we've almost never if ever gotten transfers from, + a Top 40 7 footer. If they have 2 more years at even 70-80% of that, we'll probably get there. How high "there" is will start to depend more on more granular aspects we've all seen and been discussing, but for time being think this Staff just needs more full and fair opportunity to acquire a higher level of talent.

Doesn't excuse losses like yesterday, but on macro level think that's where we are.

 

[indyredmen97]

I remember thinking to myself during the Battle for Atlantis that our guys are very young and playing grown men. I guess I didn't have lofty expectations for immediate results this year (I assume, perhaps foolishly, that posters that generate high expectations do so because they have seen the freshmen play in HS or otherwise and therefore adjust their expectations accordingly, and are not just "living in the past" as is often said). I'm really enjoying watching Ponds play and can see why Mullin made him the focal point in his recruiting. I also enjoy Lovett's play and am glad he chose to stay here and honor his commitment to our University, I hope he comes to find that decision best for him as well. I think with time the players will gel into a cohesive unit that will produce competitive results but it clearly won't be this season. The top of the Big East is amazing this year and I think that the continual health of the conference will provide the revenue streams schools like ours need to be competitive in the national market. More importantly, if we continue to be aggressive and competitive in recruiting, our inexperienced staff will have the horses to win, and will look much smarter as a result. My point is, to put it as lawmanfan previously quoted Aaron Rodgers, "Relaaaaax". These are kids and its a shame we have to call this thread "A different perspective" to point out this fact.

 

[paultzman]

I love the Johnnies, but each day am becoming more realistic & grounded about the program. At this point I am thankful my father took me to see the Tony Jackson teams, attended SJU during competent era with guys like Johnny Warren, Carmine C, Richie Jackson & subsequently saw the Mullin, Sealy & Artest teams up close. I obviously want to see a consistent, competitive program, but am not going to drive myself nuts in the process.

Mullin deserves a fair amount of time to turn the ship around. If he can't resurrect our "tired" program, so be it. This program is not the "sleeping giant" so often referenced by fans like me desperate for success & spoiled by some historic relevance. Hopefully he surprises us.

Where's my Nova hat?

If I caught you wearing a Nova hat I'd rip it right off your head! In all seriousness, its not just our historic relevance that has me feeling that we are still a sleeping giant, its our location in NYC, the Big East conference, MSG, etc. I have long said that we are one good HC away from being back to relevance. If Lavin had been able to establish NYC area ties and hadn't stopped working, he'd still be here and we'd likely back in the top 25 consistantly. Like most everyone on here, I have no clue if Chris is the answer, but I'm not about to bail on him and the team now. And if he turns out to not be the answer, maybe a guy like Danny Hurley is. Its clear we can get talent to come here, so thats not the issue. Now we need to know that we have a coaching staff in place that knows how to develop and manage that talent. I hope like hell it's Chris and his staff, but if it's not there will be another HC that will awaken this sleeping giant.

"But Monte I threw the Nova hat away"


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[Knight]

Hey. As far as this season goes, we'll always have Fordham.
By the way, anyone think the start time of games this season is limiting the turnout at home games? Fordham game time was 6:30pm only 80% full. Crowd was into it, but......