A 28 Year Recruiting Drought

R

Ray Morgan

Well-known member
The thread on Billy Schaeffer highlights just how wrong the recruiting philosophy has been at SJU, especially since 1986. Schaeffer, Mullin, Ron Rowan, Glenn Williams. That is a list of the best outside shooters SJU had in the last 41 years. The youngest of the group is Mullin at 51. And he could suit up today at age 51 and still hit more 3s at a higher percentage than anyone we have had since. Every player listed above graduated before the 1986-87 season, when the NCAA put the 3 point shot into place.

Mahoney, Fran, Jarvis, Norm, Lavin. That's 5 head coaches each with numerous assistants, and not one of them noticed that the game changed starting in 1986? The recruiting plan here has been basically the same since 1986. Sign the athletic 6'5, 6'6 small forward that is more of a tweener by today's standards. The Rowan Barrett, Dom Pointer, Amir Garrett type. And you can throw David Russell and Willie Glass in the bucket if you want to go back 30 plus years. Guys who can sky, but have too limited a shooting range and handle to play guard, and aren't really bangers either. All very good players that were a pleasure to watch and contributed to many wins. But no memorable 3 point shooters since the rule went into effect. How is that even possible? It would seem you have to find one, even by accident. If anyone has an answer, I would love to hear it. Great shooters these days aren't that rare. We certainly seem to be lit up by plenty of them. My theory is that until we get a coach that knows how to use the 3, the real shooters won't look in this direction. This program needs to catch up with the times.
 
Come on, don't you remember other notable sharp shooters that we've had since then like; Chucky Sproling, Fred Lyson, Sergio Luyk, Derrick Brown and Marco Bourgalt and Max Hooper :woohoo:
 
Come on, don't you remember other notable sharp shooters that we've had since then like; Chucky Sproling, Fred Lyson, Sergio Luyk, Derrick Brown and Marco Bourgalt and Max Hooper :woohoo:
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If only the buckets they hit in an empty gym were allowed to count. And I don't mean an empty C.A. because the "fans" stayed home.
 
Come on, don't you remember other notable sharp shooters that we've had since then like; Chucky Sproling, Fred Lyson, Sergio Luyk, Derrick Brown and Marco Bourgalt and Max Hooper :woohoo:
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Derrick Brown always showed great form taking his jump shot. Problem was the ball rarely went in the basket.
 
Ray solid post, but:

Bootsy Thornton is the rare exception, that had an impact. In fact in the 1997-1998 team Felipes senior year that lost to Detroit in the NCAA 1st rd, Bootsy traveled with the team was attending classes, but to extend his eligibility sat out that year. Fran was on record stating our best three point shooter could not play when i covered the team back then.

You bring up a great point, SJU tended to overlook the pure shooter, the Big East lends itself to good defense etc.

Freddie mentioned in an earlier post had a good freshman year but got lost in the shuffle due to injury and sitting behind felipe/rowan barett etc. he was a solid shooter, Luyk had his moments too.

It has been too long
 
I agree with pretty much everybody. We have had some good shooters but I watch other games and some of these teams have guys where as soon as they put the ball up you say "money". We lack that guy and have for a long time. We need to find somebody that when he gets the ball on the perimeter the other team is like "oh shit". Even if he has an off day a player of that caliber gives us a mental edge and opposing coaches have to make adjustments not just sit back and dare us to make jumpers as is the case now.
 
I agree with pretty much everybody. We have had some good shooters but I watch other games and some of these teams have guys where as soon as they put the ball up you say "money". We lack that guy and have for a long time. We need to find somebody that when he gets the ball on the perimeter the other team is like "oh shit". Even if he has an off day a player of that caliber gives us a mental edge and opposing coaches have to make adjustments not just sit back and dare us to make jumpers as is the case now.
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We have such a guy, his name is D'angelo Harrison.
The problem is that no one else on our team demands to be guarded tightly.
On other teams all the guards and most forwards would be at a minimum adequate shooters. That would leave space for D;angelo to get open.. or even a specialist like Hooper.
 
The thread on Billy Schaeffer highlights just how wrong the recruiting philosophy has been at SJU, especially since 1986. Schaeffer, Mullin, Ron Rowan, Glenn Williams. That is a list of the best outside shooters SJU had in the last 41 years. The youngest of the group is Mullin at 51. And he could suit up today at age 51 and still hit more 3s at a higher percentage than anyone we have had since. Every player listed above graduated before the 1986-87 season, when the NCAA put the 3 point shot into place.

Mahoney, Fran, Jarvis, Norm, Lavin. That's 5 head coaches each with numerous assistants, and not one of them noticed that the game changed starting in 1986? The recruiting plan here has been basically the same since 1986. Sign the athletic 6'5, 6'6 small forward that is more of a tweener by today's standards. The Rowan Barrett, Dom Pointer, Amir Garrett type. And you can throw David Russell and Willie Glass in the bucket if you want to go back 30 plus years. Guys who can sky, but have too limited a shooting range and handle to play guard, and aren't really bangers either. All very good players that were a pleasure to watch and contributed to many wins. But no memorable 3 point shooters since the rule went into effect. How is that even possible? It would seem you have to find one, even by accident. If anyone has an answer, I would love to hear it. Great shooters these days aren't that rare. We certainly seem to be lit up by plenty of them. My theory is that until we get a coach that knows how to use the 3, the real shooters won't look in this direction. This program needs to catch up with the times.
Click to expand...

More than a few coaches maintain that the three point shot has ruined college (and high school)basketball. Instead of playing for the easiest shot, too many ill-advised shots are launched from 20+ feet by players who should not be taking as many from that distance. I love each of those players you heralded, and I've seen them all, but Mullin, Williams, and Schaeffer scored many if not most of their points from 15 feet and in, especially Schaeffer and Williams. I disagree strongly with your postulation that any good shooter turns his back on SJU - it defies rational thought.
 
I agree with pretty much everybody. We have had some good shooters but I watch other games and some of these teams have guys where as soon as they put the ball up you say "money". We lack that guy and have for a long time. We need to find somebody that when he gets the ball on the perimeter the other team is like "oh shit". Even if he has an off day a player of that caliber gives us a mental edge and opposing coaches have to make adjustments not just sit back and dare us to make jumpers as is the case now.
Click to expand...

We have such a guy, his name is D'angelo Harrison.
The problem is that no one else on our team demands to be guarded tightly.
On other teams all the guards and most forwards would be at a minimum adequate shooters. That would leave space for D;angelo to get open.. or even a specialist like Hooper.
Click to expand...

Stop it. IT should be clear to all that even wide open from 22 feet, Harrison is no better than 50-50 (and that's very generous) to make a shot. He is a very good scorer, but not a very good shooter.
 
The thread on Billy Schaeffer highlights just how wrong the recruiting philosophy has been at SJU, especially since 1986. Schaeffer, Mullin, Ron Rowan, Glenn Williams. That is a list of the best outside shooters SJU had in the last 41 years. The youngest of the group is Mullin at 51. And he could suit up today at age 51 and still hit more 3s at a higher percentage than anyone we have had since. Every player listed above graduated before the 1986-87 season, when the NCAA put the 3 point shot into place.

Mahoney, Fran, Jarvis, Norm, Lavin. That's 5 head coaches each with numerous assistants, and not one of them noticed that the game changed starting in 1986? The recruiting plan here has been basically the same since 1986. Sign the athletic 6'5, 6'6 small forward that is more of a tweener by today's standards. The Rowan Barrett, Dom Pointer, Amir Garrett type. And you can throw David Russell and Willie Glass in the bucket if you want to go back 30 plus years. Guys who can sky, but have too limited a shooting range and handle to play guard, and aren't really bangers either. All very good players that were a pleasure to watch and contributed to many wins. But no memorable 3 point shooters since the rule went into effect. How is that even possible? It would seem you have to find one, even by accident. If anyone has an answer, I would love to hear it. Great shooters these days aren't that rare. We certainly seem to be lit up by plenty of them. My theory is that until we get a coach that knows how to use the 3, the real shooters won't look in this direction. This program needs to catch up with the times.
Click to expand...

More than a few coaches maintain that the three point shot has ruined college (and high school)basketball. Instead of playing for the easiest shot, too many ill-advised shots are launched from 20+ feet by players who should not be taking as many from that distance. I love each of those players you heralded, and I've seen them all, but Mullin, Williams, and Schaeffer scored many if not most of their points from 15 feet and in, especially Schaeffer and Williams. I disagree strongly with your postulation that any good shooter turns his back on SJU - it defies rational thought.
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I agree:it defies all rational thought. Yet he we are with 28 years of stats and the observations of many that say otherwise. As for Schaeffer and Mullin, there was no need to shoot beyond today's 3 point line since they would still get 2 points. Mullin had that range and beyond. Schaeffer was lights out from 15 feet and in. He had a wide variety of releases and could get his shot off because of them. With Schaeffer, I just can't say much about the extent of his range because his body of ABA work was limited. I can say with absolute certainty that we have had no one since 1986 that was even in their league as shooters. Yes, that's an awfully high standard. But how about a few outstanding shooters in almost 30 years of recruiting classes? Especially when you get 50% more points for it. As for whether it ruined the game, it depends who you ask. For us, it ruined the game. For Wisconsin, not so much.
 
Agreed Harrison is a great scorer, but I was referring to a player say like a Stauskas where when ever he put up a shot everyone in the arena knew it was going in. We aren't even close to having someone like that. Imagine how open the paint would for Jordan and even someone like Pointer if we had a legit pure shooting threat.
 
The thread on Billy Schaeffer highlights just how wrong the recruiting philosophy has been at SJU, especially since 1986. Schaeffer, Mullin, Ron Rowan, Glenn Williams. That is a list of the best outside shooters SJU had in the last 41 years. The youngest of the group is Mullin at 51. And he could suit up today at age 51 and still hit more 3s at a higher percentage than anyone we have had since. Every player listed above graduated before the 1986-87 season, when the NCAA put the 3 point shot into place.

Mahoney, Fran, Jarvis, Norm, Lavin. That's 5 head coaches each with numerous assistants, and not one of them noticed that the game changed starting in 1986? The recruiting plan here has been basically the same since 1986. Sign the athletic 6'5, 6'6 small forward that is more of a tweener by today's standards. The Rowan Barrett, Dom Pointer, Amir Garrett type. And you can throw David Russell and Willie Glass in the bucket if you want to go back 30 plus years. Guys who can sky, but have too limited a shooting range and handle to play guard, and aren't really bangers either. All very good players that were a pleasure to watch and contributed to many wins. But no memorable 3 point shooters since the rule went into effect. How is that even possible? It would seem you have to find one, even by accident. If anyone has an answer, I would love to hear it. Great shooters these days aren't that rare. We certainly seem to be lit up by plenty of them. My theory is that until we get a coach that knows how to use the 3, the real shooters won't look in this direction. This program needs to catch up with the times.
Click to expand...

More than a few coaches maintain that the three point shot has ruined college (and high school)basketball. Instead of playing for the easiest shot, too many ill-advised shots are launched from 20+ feet by players who should not be taking as many from that distance. I love each of those players you heralded, and I've seen them all, but Mullin, Williams, and Schaeffer scored many if not most of their points from 15 feet and in, especially Schaeffer and Williams. I disagree strongly with your postulation that any good shooter turns his back on SJU - it defies rational thought.
Click to expand...

I agree:it defies all rational thought. Yet he we are with 28 years of stats and the observations of many that say otherwise. As for Schaeffer and Mullin, there was no need to shoot beyond today's 3 point line since they would still get 2 points. Mullin had that range and beyond. Schaeffer was lights out from 15 feet and in. He had a wide variety of releases and could get his shot off because of them. With Schaeffer, I just can't say much about the extent of his range because his body of ABA work was limited. I can say with absolute certainty that we have had no one since 1986 that was even in their league as shooters. Yes, that's an awfully high standard. But how about a few outstanding shooters in almost 30 years of recruiting classes? Especially when you get 50% more points for it. As for whether it ruined the game, it depends who you ask. For us, it ruined the game. For Wisconsin, not so much.
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I would not say the game is ruined at all but IMO, the 3 point shot, ESPN and David Stern all played major roles in changing the game dramatically. Everything changes, that's life, but I know many players/fans from my "golden" era (60's and 70's) who consider the modern game unwatchable, obviously I don't.
 
I agree with pretty much everybody. We have had some good shooters but I watch other games and some of these teams have guys where as soon as they put the ball up you say "money". We lack that guy and have for a long time. We need to find somebody that when he gets the ball on the perimeter the other team is like "oh shit". Even if he has an off day a player of that caliber gives us a mental edge and opposing coaches have to make adjustments not just sit back and dare us to make jumpers as is the case now.
Click to expand...

We have such a guy, his name is D'angelo Harrison.
The problem is that no one else on our team demands to be guarded tightly.
On other teams all the guards and most forwards would be at a minimum adequate shooters. That would leave space for D;angelo to get open.. or even a specialist like Hooper.
Click to expand...

D'Angelo is my favorite player...but l have little confidence in his three point shooting.
 
The thread on Billy Schaeffer highlights just how wrong the recruiting philosophy has been at SJU, especially since 1986. Schaeffer, Mullin, Ron Rowan, Glenn Williams. That is a list of the best outside shooters SJU had in the last 41 years. The youngest of the group is Mullin at 51. And he could suit up today at age 51 and still hit more 3s at a higher percentage than anyone we have had since. Every player listed above graduated before the 1986-87 season, when the NCAA put the 3 point shot into place.

Mahoney, Fran, Jarvis, Norm, Lavin. That's 5 head coaches each with numerous assistants, and not one of them noticed that the game changed starting in 1986? The recruiting plan here has been basically the same since 1986. Sign the athletic 6'5, 6'6 small forward that is more of a tweener by today's standards. The Rowan Barrett, Dom Pointer, Amir Garrett type. And you can throw David Russell and Willie Glass in the bucket if you want to go back 30 plus years. Guys who can sky, but have too limited a shooting range and handle to play guard, and aren't really bangers either. All very good players that were a pleasure to watch and contributed to many wins. But no memorable 3 point shooters since the rule went into effect. How is that even possible? It would seem you have to find one, even by accident. If anyone has an answer, I would love to hear it. Great shooters these days aren't that rare. We certainly seem to be lit up by plenty of them. My theory is that until we get a coach that knows how to use the 3, the real shooters won't look in this direction. This program needs to catch up with the times.
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if you are going back to 86 you have to mention Louie as well= another coach who didnt play the 3 line as much as he probably should have
 
As I recall Dwight Hardy could light it up!
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yes but dwight surprised the coaching staff which didnt recruit him thinking he could shoot like that.
What is upsetting now that you have me thinking of this is how they let Dooby slip away to Rutgers
 
I agree with pretty much everybody. We have had some good shooters but I watch other games and some of these teams have guys where as soon as they put the ball up you say "money". We lack that guy and have for a long time. We need to find somebody that when he gets the ball on the perimeter the other team is like "oh shit". Even if he has an off day a player of that caliber gives us a mental edge and opposing coaches have to make adjustments not just sit back and dare us to make jumpers as is the case now.
Click to expand...

We have such a guy, his name is D'angelo Harrison.
The problem is that no one else on our team demands to be guarded tightly.
On other teams all the guards and most forwards would be at a minimum adequate shooters. That would leave space for D;angelo to get open.. or even a specialist like Hooper.
Click to expand...

Stop it. IT should be clear to all that even wide open from 22 feet, Harrison is no better than 50-50 (and that's very generous) to make a shot. He is a very good scorer, but not a very good shooter.
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Guess math wasn't your best subject-an approximately 36% 3 pt shooter is 50-50 to make the shot. :)
 
I think the best way to prove the point of the this topic is that St. John's leader in 3 point field goals made prior to D'Angelo Harrison was Willie Shaw!!! I mean imagine that. A player who had a career 3 point % of 33%, including 25% his sophomore season.
 
What I'm not hearing is the why. If I'm a 3 point specialist, I'm going to a program that utilizes the 3 as a major part of their offensive scheme, and runs plays to set up their shooters. While Lavin, on paper, had a great first recruiting class, only Harrison had a rep as a shooter, and that primarily came from Lavin. He could have gone in another direction, but I guess that's not him. I'm of the mindset that until we get a coach that either believes in the 3 and recruits with that in mind, or a coach like Ryan that stresses the 3, then we will continue to be using a style of play that stopped working at the start of the 86 season.
 
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