2014 U.S. News Ranking Just Released

[jerseyshorejohnny]

Many SJU students of 25-40 years ago were among the first to attend college in their families. Most of their parents did not possess a college degree, especially those who served in WWII and Korea. SJU was so affordable that it was the ONLY choice for a Catholic, private education. As a result, in those years, we had students that never would consider St. John's today. Also, those SJU graduates became successful enough that they could afford better schools for their own kids, which essentially cut off most legacy possibilities. So as the student body doesn't get bright children of bright SJU graduates, the school has had to attract other students to St. John's. Add to the mix that the school, with a diminished Catholic population in Queens, has actually expanded enrollment, and the result is less qualified students than back in the day.

The result is not inevitable - it's a failure to improve the core aspects that make a university great beyond nice buildings.

Beast..... I admire your attempt to spin the argument to defend St.John's failings but you are mistaken if you believe that 25 to 40 years ago that other "Catholic colleges (see: Providence, Villanova, Marguettte, Seton Hall, Siena, St.John Fisher (yes, Fisher is ranked ahead of St.John's), Fairfield, Marist and others) did not likewise primarily attract first generation college students from parochial high school schools. The difference is that during the 25 to 40 years the other Catholic colleges raised their academic profile while the brain trust at St.John's was seemingly turned a blind eye to academic reputation. The end result is that today the mothers and fathers of most other Catholic colleges encourage their kids to attend the school they graduated from while St.John's parents encourage their kids to go elsewhere. Sad. Unfortunate. Didn't have to be.

To some extent we are comapring (contrasting) apples and oranges.

Marist, is ranked #10 among schools in The North region.

Average GPA of those enrolled freshman of 3.3
Average SAT (not including Writing Section) 1166

http://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/marist-college-2765/applying/entering-class-stats?int=c6b9e3

Here's where it gets a tad tricky. They have a Freshman enrollment of 1,098

Arguably, I would think that our top 1,098 Freshman would meet the aforementioned achievements.

This is NOT a knock on Marist by any stretch.

Marist is a fine school and has been improving its academic profile meaningfully over the recent past.

It is to simply point out that schools with a much lower number of Freshman have, in many instances, an advantage to us.

That said, and to be fair, schools like DePaul, which have, for all intent and purpose, the "same" Freshman enrollment as we do are ranked higher becuase retention and 6 year graduation rates are better. St. John's is aware of these issues and are working toward improving them through various programs.

Also to be balanced 23% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 10% of their High School Class, compared with 17% for St. John's

52% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 25% of their High School Class, compared with 40% for St. John's.

 

[Pleasedontbanmeagain]

Many SJU students of 25-40 years ago were among the first to attend college in their families. Most of their parents did not possess a college degree, especially those who served in WWII and Korea. SJU was so affordable that it was the ONLY choice for a Catholic, private education. As a result, in those years, we had students that never would consider St. John's today. Also, those SJU graduates became successful enough that they could afford better schools for their own kids, which essentially cut off most legacy possibilities. So as the student body doesn't get bright children of bright SJU graduates, the school has had to attract other students to St. John's. Add to the mix that the school, with a diminished Catholic population in Queens, has actually expanded enrollment, and the result is less qualified students than back in the day.

The result is not inevitable - it's a failure to improve the core aspects that make a university great beyond nice buildings.

Beast..... I admire your attempt to spin the argument to defend St.John's failings but you are mistaken if you believe that 25 to 40 years ago that other "Catholic colleges (see: Providence, Villanova, Marguettte, Seton Hall, Siena, St.John Fisher (yes, Fisher is ranked ahead of St.John's), Fairfield, Marist and others) did not likewise primarily attract first generation college students from parochial high school schools. The difference is that during the 25 to 40 years the other Catholic colleges raised their academic profile while the brain trust at St.John's was seemingly turned a blind eye to academic reputation. The end result is that today the mothers and fathers of most other Catholic colleges encourage their kids to attend the school they graduated from while St.John's parents encourage their kids to go elsewhere. Sad. Unfortunate. Didn't have to be.

To some extent we are comapring (contrasting) apples and oranges.

Marist, is ranked #10 among schools in The North region.

Average GPA of those enrolled freshman of 3.3
Average SAT (not including Writing Section) 1166

http://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/marist-college-2765/applying/entering-class-stats?int=c6b9e3

Here's where it gets a tad tricky. They have a Freshman enrollment of 1,098

Arguably, I would think that our top 1,098 Freshman would meet the aforementioned achievements.

This is NOT a knock on Marist by any stretch.

Marist is a fine school and has been improving its academic profile meaningfully over the recent past.

It is to simply point out that schools with a much lower number of Freshman have, in many instances, an advantage to us.

That said, and to be fair, schools like DePaul, which have, for all intent and purpose, the "same" Freshman enrollment as we do are ranked higher becuase retention and 6 year graduation rates are better. St. John's is aware of these issues and are working toward improving them through various programs.

Also to be balanced 23% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 10% of their High School Class, compared with 17% for St. John's

52% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 25% of their High School Class, compared with 40% for St. John's.

Some may not know this, but my undergrad alma mater is Marist. When I say Marist is in a different tier than SJU academically for undergrad I do not exaggerate. The students that go there take grades seriously and I was in the minority it seemed coming from a public school. I was also among very few who did not transfer any AP credits...it's the norm for people to graduate early because they were such good students in high school. Marist attracts students from Chaminade, St. Anthony's, and other great private schools. SJU attracts first time college students and low SES backgrounds who historically perform well lower academically. That's not putting anyone down, that's just the truth. Marist accepts around 29% of its applicants while SJU accepts over half (53%) which is nearly double the rate of Marist. Did you know that nationally if you take the schools with the lowest acceptance rates, Marist is among the top 10% most selective? Its nickname is "Harvard on the Hudson" for a reason. The campus is pristine, the students take school very seriously and many have gone on to graduate programs at Ivy League schools as well as Law programs. Villanova is #1 in the North, PC is #2 and Marist is #10...they are all in the same conversation when students apply to these kinds of schools.

In fact, I know people who were rejected from Marist but accepted to Fordham with very good grades. The facilities, campus, academic reputation, school spirit, and prestige all completely blow SJU away. Now before people say "well why are you blasting SJU if you go there?", it's because it's for grad school, not undergrad. I would not go as an undergrad but SJU does have good grad programs i.e. School Psychology, Law, Business, Pharmacy, etc.

 

[beast of the east]

Many SJU students of 25-40 years ago were among the first to attend college in their families. Most of their parents did not possess a college degree, especially those who served in WWII and Korea. SJU was so affordable that it was the ONLY choice for a Catholic, private education. As a result, in those years, we had students that never would consider St. John's today. Also, those SJU graduates became successful enough that they could afford better schools for their own kids, which essentially cut off most legacy possibilities. So as the student body doesn't get bright children of bright SJU graduates, the school has had to attract other students to St. John's. Add to the mix that the school, with a diminished Catholic population in Queens, has actually expanded enrollment, and the result is less qualified students than back in the day.

The result is not inevitable - it's a failure to improve the core aspects that make a university great beyond nice buildings.

Beast..... I admire your attempt to spin the argument to defend St.John's failings but you are mistaken if you believe that 25 to 40 years ago that other "Catholic colleges (see: Providence, Villanova, Marguettte, Seton Hall, Siena, St.John Fisher (yes, Fisher is ranked ahead of St.John's), Fairfield, Marist and others) did not likewise primarily attract first generation college students from parochial high school schools. The difference is that during the 25 to 40 years the other Catholic colleges raised their academic profile while the brain trust at St.John's was seemingly turned a blind eye to academic reputation. The end result is that today the mothers and fathers of most other Catholic colleges encourage their kids to attend the school they graduated from while St.John's parents encourage their kids to go elsewhere. Sad. Unfortunate. Didn't have to be.

To some extent we are comapring (contrasting) apples and oranges.

Marist, is ranked #10 among schools in The North region.

Average GPA of those enrolled freshman of 3.3
Average SAT (not including Writing Section) 1166

http://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/marist-college-2765/applying/entering-class-stats?int=c6b9e3

Here's where it gets a tad tricky. They have a Freshman enrollment of 1,098

Arguably, I would think that our top 1,098 Freshman would meet the aforementioned achievements.

This is NOT a knock on Marist by any stretch.

Marist is a fine school and has been improving its academic profile meaningfully over the recent past.

It is to simply point out that schools with a much lower number of Freshman have, in many instances, an advantage to us.

That said, and to be fair, schools like DePaul, which have, for all intent and purpose, the "same" Freshman enrollment as we do are ranked higher becuase retention and 6 year graduation rates are better. St. John's is aware of these issues and are working toward improving them through various programs.

Also to be balanced 23% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 10% of their High School Class, compared with 17% for St. John's

52% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 25% of their High School Class, compared with 40% for St. John's.

JSJ, I'm sure you are aware that when you consider our college of pharmacy, which in my day had 400+ freshmen, all of those students would have SATs of 1160 or more. The average SAT is about 1350 for pharmacy school students. Most of the freshmen class at SJU wouldn't qualify for pharmacy school, and if they were accepted, most wouldn't handle the academic rigors. I don't really think it's a fair comparison to say that our top 1100 freshmen compare favorably to Marist's entire freshmen class. By the same token, it may be more accurate to say that our 1100 lowest scoring freshmen would never get into Marist.

 

[beast of the east]

Many SJU students of 25-40 years ago were among the first to attend college in their families. Most of their parents did not possess a college degree, especially those who served in WWII and Korea. SJU was so affordable that it was the ONLY choice for a Catholic, private education. As a result, in those years, we had students that never would consider St. John's today. Also, those SJU graduates became successful enough that they could afford better schools for their own kids, which essentially cut off most legacy possibilities. So as the student body doesn't get bright children of bright SJU graduates, the school has had to attract other students to St. John's. Add to the mix that the school, with a diminished Catholic population in Queens, has actually expanded enrollment, and the result is less qualified students than back in the day.

The result is not inevitable - it's a failure to improve the core aspects that make a university great beyond nice buildings.

Beast..... I admire your attempt to spin the argument to defend St.John's failings but you are mistaken if you believe that 25 to 40 years ago that other "Catholic colleges (see: Providence, Villanova, Marguettte, Seton Hall, Siena, St.John Fisher (yes, Fisher is ranked ahead of St.John's), Fairfield, Marist and others) did not likewise primarily attract first generation college students from parochial high school schools. The difference is that during the 25 to 40 years the other Catholic colleges raised their academic profile while the brain trust at St.John's was seemingly turned a blind eye to academic reputation. The end result is that today the mothers and fathers of most other Catholic colleges encourage their kids to attend the school they graduated from while St.John's parents encourage their kids to go elsewhere. Sad. Unfortunate. Didn't have to be.

To some extent we are comapring (contrasting) apples and oranges.

Marist, is ranked #10 among schools in The North region.

Average GPA of those enrolled freshman of 3.3
Average SAT (not including Writing Section) 1166

http://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/marist-college-2765/applying/entering-class-stats?int=c6b9e3

Here's where it gets a tad tricky. They have a Freshman enrollment of 1,098

Arguably, I would think that our top 1,098 Freshman would meet the aforementioned achievements.

This is NOT a knock on Marist by any stretch.

Marist is a fine school and has been improving its academic profile meaningfully over the recent past.

It is to simply point out that schools with a much lower number of Freshman have, in many instances, an advantage to us.

That said, and to be fair, schools like DePaul, which have, for all intent and purpose, the "same" Freshman enrollment as we do are ranked higher becuase retention and 6 year graduation rates are better. St. John's is aware of these issues and are working toward improving them through various programs.

Also to be balanced 23% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 10% of their High School Class, compared with 17% for St. John's

52% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 25% of their High School Class, compared with 40% for St. John's.

Some may not know this, but my undergrad alma mater is Marist. When I say Marist is in a different tier than SJU academically for undergrad I do not exaggerate. The students that go there take grades seriously and I was in the minority it seemed coming from a public school. I was also among very few who did not transfer any AP credits...it's the norm for people to graduate early because they were such good students in high school. Marist attracts students from Chaminade, St. Anthony's, and other great private schools. SJU attracts first time college students and low SES backgrounds who historically perform well lower academically. That's not putting anyone down, that's just the truth. Marist accepts around 29% of its applicants while SJU accepts over half (53%) which is nearly double the rate of Marist. Did you know that nationally if you take the schools with the lowest acceptance rates, Marist is among the top 10% most selective? Its nickname is "Harvard on the Hudson" for a reason. The campus is pristine, the students take school very seriously and many have gone on to graduate programs at Ivy League schools as well as Law programs. Villanova is #1 in the North, PC is #2 and Marist is #10...they are all in the same conversation when students apply to these kinds of schools.

In fact, I know people who were rejected from Marist but accepted to Fordham with very good grades. The facilities, campus, academic reputation, school spirit, and prestige all completely blow SJU away. Now before people say "well why are you blasting SJU if you go there?", it's because it's for grad school, not undergrad. I would not go as an undergrad but SJU does have good grad programs i.e. School Psychology, Law, Business, Pharmacy, etc.

Calling Marist "Harvard on the Hudson" is laugahable. I seriously doubt there are (m)any students accepted to Harvard who chose Marist instead.

In terms of your comparison to Fordham acceptance you are leaving out one key fact - Fordham accepts much of their freshman class via early action, and then gets very competitive in the regular process. It's likely your friends who were rejected by Marist but got into Fordham applied early action to Fordham.

 

[Pleasedontbanmeagain]

Many SJU students of 25-40 years ago were among the first to attend college in their families. Most of their parents did not possess a college degree, especially those who served in WWII and Korea. SJU was so affordable that it was the ONLY choice for a Catholic, private education. As a result, in those years, we had students that never would consider St. John's today. Also, those SJU graduates became successful enough that they could afford better schools for their own kids, which essentially cut off most legacy possibilities. So as the student body doesn't get bright children of bright SJU graduates, the school has had to attract other students to St. John's. Add to the mix that the school, with a diminished Catholic population in Queens, has actually expanded enrollment, and the result is less qualified students than back in the day.

The result is not inevitable - it's a failure to improve the core aspects that make a university great beyond nice buildings.

Beast..... I admire your attempt to spin the argument to defend St.John's failings but you are mistaken if you believe that 25 to 40 years ago that other "Catholic colleges (see: Providence, Villanova, Marguettte, Seton Hall, Siena, St.John Fisher (yes, Fisher is ranked ahead of St.John's), Fairfield, Marist and others) did not likewise primarily attract first generation college students from parochial high school schools. The difference is that during the 25 to 40 years the other Catholic colleges raised their academic profile while the brain trust at St.John's was seemingly turned a blind eye to academic reputation. The end result is that today the mothers and fathers of most other Catholic colleges encourage their kids to attend the school they graduated from while St.John's parents encourage their kids to go elsewhere. Sad. Unfortunate. Didn't have to be.

To some extent we are comapring (contrasting) apples and oranges.

Marist, is ranked #10 among schools in The North region.

Average GPA of those enrolled freshman of 3.3
Average SAT (not including Writing Section) 1166

http://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/marist-college-2765/applying/entering-class-stats?int=c6b9e3

Here's where it gets a tad tricky. They have a Freshman enrollment of 1,098

Arguably, I would think that our top 1,098 Freshman would meet the aforementioned achievements.

This is NOT a knock on Marist by any stretch.

Marist is a fine school and has been improving its academic profile meaningfully over the recent past.

It is to simply point out that schools with a much lower number of Freshman have, in many instances, an advantage to us.

That said, and to be fair, schools like DePaul, which have, for all intent and purpose, the "same" Freshman enrollment as we do are ranked higher becuase retention and 6 year graduation rates are better. St. John's is aware of these issues and are working toward improving them through various programs.

Also to be balanced 23% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 10% of their High School Class, compared with 17% for St. John's

52% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 25% of their High School Class, compared with 40% for St. John's.

Some may not know this, but my undergrad alma mater is Marist. When I say Marist is in a different tier than SJU academically for undergrad I do not exaggerate. The students that go there take grades seriously and I was in the minority it seemed coming from a public school. I was also among very few who did not transfer any AP credits...it's the norm for people to graduate early because they were such good students in high school. Marist attracts students from Chaminade, St. Anthony's, and other great private schools. SJU attracts first time college students and low SES backgrounds who historically perform well lower academically. That's not putting anyone down, that's just the truth. Marist accepts around 29% of its applicants while SJU accepts over half (53%) which is nearly double the rate of Marist. Did you know that nationally if you take the schools with the lowest acceptance rates, Marist is among the top 10% most selective? Its nickname is "Harvard on the Hudson" for a reason. The campus is pristine, the students take school very seriously and many have gone on to graduate programs at Ivy League schools as well as Law programs. Villanova is #1 in the North, PC is #2 and Marist is #10...they are all in the same conversation when students apply to these kinds of schools.

In fact, I know people who were rejected from Marist but accepted to Fordham with very good grades. The facilities, campus, academic reputation, school spirit, and prestige all completely blow SJU away. Now before people say "well why are you blasting SJU if you go there?", it's because it's for grad school, not undergrad. I would not go as an undergrad but SJU does have good grad programs i.e. School Psychology, Law, Business, Pharmacy, etc.

Calling Marist "Harvard on the Hudson" is laugahable. I seriously doubt there are (m)any students accepted to Harvard who chose Marist instead.

In terms of your comparison to Fordham acceptance you are leaving out one key fact - Fordham accepts much of their freshman class via early action, and then gets very competitive in the regular process. It's likely your friends who were rejected by Marist but got into Fordham applied early action to Fordham.

Obviously it's exaggerated, it's not meant to be literal. But that is a real saying. If you really believed I meant that Marist could compete with Harvard then we are on 2 different wavelengths here. Obviously not what I meant. As I said...#1 in the North is Nova, #2 is PC and #10 is Marist...Marist is in the conversation with those 2 schools and many students apply to those types. Before you say it, obviously Nova is better, but not in a different tier. From #1 to #10 is not a big leap in college rankings where about 300 are ranked. The secret at Marist is they select the BEST student, not the one from Haiti who couldn't speak any English and was attending college for the first time in their family's history. Maybe SJU can try it.

 

[beast of the east]

Many SJU students of 25-40 years ago were among the first to attend college in their families. Most of their parents did not possess a college degree, especially those who served in WWII and Korea. SJU was so affordable that it was the ONLY choice for a Catholic, private education. As a result, in those years, we had students that never would consider St. John's today. Also, those SJU graduates became successful enough that they could afford better schools for their own kids, which essentially cut off most legacy possibilities. So as the student body doesn't get bright children of bright SJU graduates, the school has had to attract other students to St. John's. Add to the mix that the school, with a diminished Catholic population in Queens, has actually expanded enrollment, and the result is less qualified students than back in the day.

The result is not inevitable - it's a failure to improve the core aspects that make a university great beyond nice buildings.

Beast..... I admire your attempt to spin the argument to defend St.John's failings but you are mistaken if you believe that 25 to 40 years ago that other "Catholic colleges (see: Providence, Villanova, Marguettte, Seton Hall, Siena, St.John Fisher (yes, Fisher is ranked ahead of St.John's), Fairfield, Marist and others) did not likewise primarily attract first generation college students from parochial high school schools. The difference is that during the 25 to 40 years the other Catholic colleges raised their academic profile while the brain trust at St.John's was seemingly turned a blind eye to academic reputation. The end result is that today the mothers and fathers of most other Catholic colleges encourage their kids to attend the school they graduated from while St.John's parents encourage their kids to go elsewhere. Sad. Unfortunate. Didn't have to be.

To some extent we are comapring (contrasting) apples and oranges.

Marist, is ranked #10 among schools in The North region.

Average GPA of those enrolled freshman of 3.3
Average SAT (not including Writing Section) 1166

http://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/marist-college-2765/applying/entering-class-stats?int=c6b9e3

Here's where it gets a tad tricky. They have a Freshman enrollment of 1,098

Arguably, I would think that our top 1,098 Freshman would meet the aforementioned achievements.

This is NOT a knock on Marist by any stretch.

Marist is a fine school and has been improving its academic profile meaningfully over the recent past.

It is to simply point out that schools with a much lower number of Freshman have, in many instances, an advantage to us.

That said, and to be fair, schools like DePaul, which have, for all intent and purpose, the "same" Freshman enrollment as we do are ranked higher becuase retention and 6 year graduation rates are better. St. John's is aware of these issues and are working toward improving them through various programs.

Also to be balanced 23% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 10% of their High School Class, compared with 17% for St. John's

52% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 25% of their High School Class, compared with 40% for St. John's.

Some may not know this, but my undergrad alma mater is Marist. When I say Marist is in a different tier than SJU academically for undergrad I do not exaggerate. The students that go there take grades seriously and I was in the minority it seemed coming from a public school. I was also among very few who did not transfer any AP credits...it's the norm for people to graduate early because they were such good students in high school. Marist attracts students from Chaminade, St. Anthony's, and other great private schools. SJU attracts first time college students and low SES backgrounds who historically perform well lower academically. That's not putting anyone down, that's just the truth. Marist accepts around 29% of its applicants while SJU accepts over half (53%) which is nearly double the rate of Marist. Did you know that nationally if you take the schools with the lowest acceptance rates, Marist is among the top 10% most selective? Its nickname is "Harvard on the Hudson" for a reason. The campus is pristine, the students take school very seriously and many have gone on to graduate programs at Ivy League schools as well as Law programs. Villanova is #1 in the North, PC is #2 and Marist is #10...they are all in the same conversation when students apply to these kinds of schools.

In fact, I know people who were rejected from Marist but accepted to Fordham with very good grades. The facilities, campus, academic reputation, school spirit, and prestige all completely blow SJU away. Now before people say "well why are you blasting SJU if you go there?", it's because it's for grad school, not undergrad. I would not go as an undergrad but SJU does have good grad programs i.e. School Psychology, Law, Business, Pharmacy, etc.

Calling Marist "Harvard on the Hudson" is laugahable. I seriously doubt there are (m)any students accepted to Harvard who chose Marist instead.

In terms of your comparison to Fordham acceptance you are leaving out one key fact - Fordham accepts much of their freshman class via early action, and then gets very competitive in the regular process. It's likely your friends who were rejected by Marist but got into Fordham applied early action to Fordham.

Obviously it's exaggerated, it's not meant to be literal. But that is a real saying. If you really believed I meant that Marist could compete with Harvard then we are on 2 different wavelengths here. Obviously not what I meant. As I said...#1 in the North is Nova, #2 is PC and #10 is Marist...Marist is in the conversation with those 2 schools and many students apply to those types. Before you say it, obviously Nova is better, but not in a different tier. From #1 to #10 is not a big leap in college rankings where about 300 are ranked. The secret at Marist is they select the BEST student, not the one from Haiti who couldn't speak any English and was attending college for the first time in their family's history. Maybe SJU can try it.

Thanks for clarifying. Nova is in a different tier. In the Northeast, there is Georgetown, Boston College, and Villanova, all highly selective but each in a different tier than the other. The falloff from there is significant. A kid who applies to Nova as a reach will likely have a school like Marist as a safety choice.

 

[jerseyshorejohnny]

Many SJU students of 25-40 years ago were among the first to attend college in their families. Most of their parents did not possess a college degree, especially those who served in WWII and Korea. SJU was so affordable that it was the ONLY choice for a Catholic, private education. As a result, in those years, we had students that never would consider St. John's today. Also, those SJU graduates became successful enough that they could afford better schools for their own kids, which essentially cut off most legacy possibilities. So as the student body doesn't get bright children of bright SJU graduates, the school has had to attract other students to St. John's. Add to the mix that the school, with a diminished Catholic population in Queens, has actually expanded enrollment, and the result is less qualified students than back in the day.

The result is not inevitable - it's a failure to improve the core aspects that make a university great beyond nice buildings.

Beast..... I admire your attempt to spin the argument to defend St.John's failings but you are mistaken if you believe that 25 to 40 years ago that other "Catholic colleges (see: Providence, Villanova, Marguettte, Seton Hall, Siena, St.John Fisher (yes, Fisher is ranked ahead of St.John's), Fairfield, Marist and others) did not likewise primarily attract first generation college students from parochial high school schools. The difference is that during the 25 to 40 years the other Catholic colleges raised their academic profile while the brain trust at St.John's was seemingly turned a blind eye to academic reputation. The end result is that today the mothers and fathers of most other Catholic colleges encourage their kids to attend the school they graduated from while St.John's parents encourage their kids to go elsewhere. Sad. Unfortunate. Didn't have to be.

To some extent we are comapring (contrasting) apples and oranges.

Marist, is ranked #10 among schools in The North region.

Average GPA of those enrolled freshman of 3.3
Average SAT (not including Writing Section) 1166

http://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/marist-college-2765/applying/entering-class-stats?int=c6b9e3

Here's where it gets a tad tricky. They have a Freshman enrollment of 1,098

Arguably, I would think that our top 1,098 Freshman would meet the aforementioned achievements.

This is NOT a knock on Marist by any stretch.

Marist is a fine school and has been improving its academic profile meaningfully over the recent past.

It is to simply point out that schools with a much lower number of Freshman have, in many instances, an advantage to us.

That said, and to be fair, schools like DePaul, which have, for all intent and purpose, the "same" Freshman enrollment as we do are ranked higher becuase retention and 6 year graduation rates are better. St. John's is aware of these issues and are working toward improving them through various programs.

Also to be balanced 23% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 10% of their High School Class, compared with 17% for St. John's

52% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 25% of their High School Class, compared with 40% for St. John's.

JSJ, I'm sure you are aware that when you consider our college of pharmacy, which in my day had 400+ freshmen, all of those students would have SATs of 1160 or more. The average SAT is about 1350 for pharmacy school students. Most of the freshmen class at SJU wouldn't qualify for pharmacy school, and if they were accepted, most wouldn't handle the academic rigors. I don't really think it's a fair comparison to say that our top 1100 freshmen compare favorably to Marist's entire freshmen class. By the same token, it may be more accurate to say that our 1100 lowest scoring freshmen would never get into Marist.

By definition, the top Pharma students are part of the St. John's freshman class. That is a fact. If you want to exclude them from the conversation, that is another matter. You are correct about the bottom 1100.

 

[jerseyshorejohnny]

FWIW...

Fordham with a somewhat larger Freshman Class (1,882) than Marist.

Average H.S. GPA: 3.6

SAT Reading (average) 622
SAT Math (average) 632

50% of The Freshman Class in Top 10% of their high school class
87% of The Freshman Class in Top 25% of their high school class.

 

[beast of the east]

Many SJU students of 25-40 years ago were among the first to attend college in their families. Most of their parents did not possess a college degree, especially those who served in WWII and Korea. SJU was so affordable that it was the ONLY choice for a Catholic, private education. As a result, in those years, we had students that never would consider St. John's today. Also, those SJU graduates became successful enough that they could afford better schools for their own kids, which essentially cut off most legacy possibilities. So as the student body doesn't get bright children of bright SJU graduates, the school has had to attract other students to St. John's. Add to the mix that the school, with a diminished Catholic population in Queens, has actually expanded enrollment, and the result is less qualified students than back in the day.

The result is not inevitable - it's a failure to improve the core aspects that make a university great beyond nice buildings.

Beast..... I admire your attempt to spin the argument to defend St.John's failings but you are mistaken if you believe that 25 to 40 years ago that other "Catholic colleges (see: Providence, Villanova, Marguettte, Seton Hall, Siena, St.John Fisher (yes, Fisher is ranked ahead of St.John's), Fairfield, Marist and others) did not likewise primarily attract first generation college students from parochial high school schools. The difference is that during the 25 to 40 years the other Catholic colleges raised their academic profile while the brain trust at St.John's was seemingly turned a blind eye to academic reputation. The end result is that today the mothers and fathers of most other Catholic colleges encourage their kids to attend the school they graduated from while St.John's parents encourage their kids to go elsewhere. Sad. Unfortunate. Didn't have to be.

To some extent we are comapring (contrasting) apples and oranges.

Marist, is ranked #10 among schools in The North region.

Average GPA of those enrolled freshman of 3.3
Average SAT (not including Writing Section) 1166

http://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/marist-college-2765/applying/entering-class-stats?int=c6b9e3

Here's where it gets a tad tricky. They have a Freshman enrollment of 1,098

Arguably, I would think that our top 1,098 Freshman would meet the aforementioned achievements.

This is NOT a knock on Marist by any stretch.

Marist is a fine school and has been improving its academic profile meaningfully over the recent past.

It is to simply point out that schools with a much lower number of Freshman have, in many instances, an advantage to us.

That said, and to be fair, schools like DePaul, which have, for all intent and purpose, the "same" Freshman enrollment as we do are ranked higher becuase retention and 6 year graduation rates are better. St. John's is aware of these issues and are working toward improving them through various programs.

Also to be balanced 23% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 10% of their High School Class, compared with 17% for St. John's

52% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 25% of their High School Class, compared with 40% for St. John's.

JSJ, I'm sure you are aware that when you consider our college of pharmacy, which in my day had 400+ freshmen, all of those students would have SATs of 1160 or more. The average SAT is about 1350 for pharmacy school students. Most of the freshmen class at SJU wouldn't qualify for pharmacy school, and if they were accepted, most wouldn't handle the academic rigors. I don't really think it's a fair comparison to say that our top 1100 freshmen compare favorably to Marist's entire freshmen class. By the same token, it may be more accurate to say that our 1100 lowest scoring freshmen would never get into Marist.

By definition, the top Pharma students are part of the St. John's freshman class. That is a fact. If you want to exclude them from the conversation, that is another matter. You are correct about the bottom 1100.

I don't know that I really had a point except to say that in order to pass astate boards, any school with a pharmacy school better have accepted students in that range. In that regard, few of those students are selecting St. john's and then pharmacy school - they have chosen pharmacy as a major and then locally decide between LIU and St. John's.

 

[Pleasedontbanmeagain]

Many SJU students of 25-40 years ago were among the first to attend college in their families. Most of their parents did not possess a college degree, especially those who served in WWII and Korea. SJU was so affordable that it was the ONLY choice for a Catholic, private education. As a result, in those years, we had students that never would consider St. John's today. Also, those SJU graduates became successful enough that they could afford better schools for their own kids, which essentially cut off most legacy possibilities. So as the student body doesn't get bright children of bright SJU graduates, the school has had to attract other students to St. John's. Add to the mix that the school, with a diminished Catholic population in Queens, has actually expanded enrollment, and the result is less qualified students than back in the day.

The result is not inevitable - it's a failure to improve the core aspects that make a university great beyond nice buildings.

Beast..... I admire your attempt to spin the argument to defend St.John's failings but you are mistaken if you believe that 25 to 40 years ago that other "Catholic colleges (see: Providence, Villanova, Marguettte, Seton Hall, Siena, St.John Fisher (yes, Fisher is ranked ahead of St.John's), Fairfield, Marist and others) did not likewise primarily attract first generation college students from parochial high school schools. The difference is that during the 25 to 40 years the other Catholic colleges raised their academic profile while the brain trust at St.John's was seemingly turned a blind eye to academic reputation. The end result is that today the mothers and fathers of most other Catholic colleges encourage their kids to attend the school they graduated from while St.John's parents encourage their kids to go elsewhere. Sad. Unfortunate. Didn't have to be.

To some extent we are comapring (contrasting) apples and oranges.

Marist, is ranked #10 among schools in The North region.

Average GPA of those enrolled freshman of 3.3
Average SAT (not including Writing Section) 1166

http://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/marist-college-2765/applying/entering-class-stats?int=c6b9e3

Here's where it gets a tad tricky. They have a Freshman enrollment of 1,098

Arguably, I would think that our top 1,098 Freshman would meet the aforementioned achievements.

This is NOT a knock on Marist by any stretch.

Marist is a fine school and has been improving its academic profile meaningfully over the recent past.

It is to simply point out that schools with a much lower number of Freshman have, in many instances, an advantage to us.

That said, and to be fair, schools like DePaul, which have, for all intent and purpose, the "same" Freshman enrollment as we do are ranked higher becuase retention and 6 year graduation rates are better. St. John's is aware of these issues and are working toward improving them through various programs.

Also to be balanced 23% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 10% of their High School Class, compared with 17% for St. John's

52% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 25% of their High School Class, compared with 40% for St. John's.

Some may not know this, but my undergrad alma mater is Marist. When I say Marist is in a different tier than SJU academically for undergrad I do not exaggerate. The students that go there take grades seriously and I was in the minority it seemed coming from a public school. I was also among very few who did not transfer any AP credits...it's the norm for people to graduate early because they were such good students in high school. Marist attracts students from Chaminade, St. Anthony's, and other great private schools. SJU attracts first time college students and low SES backgrounds who historically perform well lower academically. That's not putting anyone down, that's just the truth. Marist accepts around 29% of its applicants while SJU accepts over half (53%) which is nearly double the rate of Marist. Did you know that nationally if you take the schools with the lowest acceptance rates, Marist is among the top 10% most selective? Its nickname is "Harvard on the Hudson" for a reason. The campus is pristine, the students take school very seriously and many have gone on to graduate programs at Ivy League schools as well as Law programs. Villanova is #1 in the North, PC is #2 and Marist is #10...they are all in the same conversation when students apply to these kinds of schools.

In fact, I know people who were rejected from Marist but accepted to Fordham with very good grades. The facilities, campus, academic reputation, school spirit, and prestige all completely blow SJU away. Now before people say "well why are you blasting SJU if you go there?", it's because it's for grad school, not undergrad. I would not go as an undergrad but SJU does have good grad programs i.e. School Psychology, Law, Business, Pharmacy, etc.

Calling Marist "Harvard on the Hudson" is laugahable. I seriously doubt there are (m)any students accepted to Harvard who chose Marist instead.

In terms of your comparison to Fordham acceptance you are leaving out one key fact - Fordham accepts much of their freshman class via early action, and then gets very competitive in the regular process. It's likely your friends who were rejected by Marist but got into Fordham applied early action to Fordham.

Obviously it's exaggerated, it's not meant to be literal. But that is a real saying. If you really believed I meant that Marist could compete with Harvard then we are on 2 different wavelengths here. Obviously not what I meant. As I said...#1 in the North is Nova, #2 is PC and #10 is Marist...Marist is in the conversation with those 2 schools and many students apply to those types. Before you say it, obviously Nova is better, but not in a different tier. From #1 to #10 is not a big leap in college rankings where about 300 are ranked. The secret at Marist is they select the BEST student, not the one from Haiti who couldn't speak any English and was attending college for the first time in their family's history. Maybe SJU can try it.

Thanks for clarifying. Nova is in a different tier. In the Northeast, there is Georgetown, Boston College, and Villanova, all highly selective but each in a different tier than the other. The falloff from there is significant. A kid who applies to Nova as a reach will likely have a school like Marist as a safety choice.

The last sentence is just dead wrong. Nova is a slight reach, but there are tons of students who could go to either. Marist and PC are 2 very common schools with similar vibes that the same groups of students apply to. PC is #2 Nova is #1...stop making it sound like it's night and day because it's not. You must be thinking of Marist from the days Bill O'Reilly attended when it wasn't that known or prestigious. A LOT has changed. Even from the time I graduated in 07 to now 13 a ton has changed. We have interns in the White House, FBI, ESPN, NBC, Fox, etc. and have partnerships with NBC (Marist Poll) and IBM (very close partners). The acceptance rate is 29% and has been going down steadily. When I applied it was at about 43% and that was in 2007. That 3.3 average GPA is definitely lowered by affirmative action acceptances and it hits much harder because the school barely has 5,000 undergrads. Basically if you have lower than a 3.5 Marist is a reach unless you fall in the affirmative action category. They also are one of the few schools that recalculates your GPA. They take out all your BS courses like gym, art, music, etc. and only calculate your GPA based on core subjects i.e. Math, Science, English, etc. Go take a trip there and see for yourself how prestigious it has become.

 

[beast of the east]

Many SJU students of 25-40 years ago were among the first to attend college in their families. Most of their parents did not possess a college degree, especially those who served in WWII and Korea. SJU was so affordable that it was the ONLY choice for a Catholic, private education. As a result, in those years, we had students that never would consider St. John's today. Also, those SJU graduates became successful enough that they could afford better schools for their own kids, which essentially cut off most legacy possibilities. So as the student body doesn't get bright children of bright SJU graduates, the school has had to attract other students to St. John's. Add to the mix that the school, with a diminished Catholic population in Queens, has actually expanded enrollment, and the result is less qualified students than back in the day.

The result is not inevitable - it's a failure to improve the core aspects that make a university great beyond nice buildings.

Beast..... I admire your attempt to spin the argument to defend St.John's failings but you are mistaken if you believe that 25 to 40 years ago that other "Catholic colleges (see: Providence, Villanova, Marguettte, Seton Hall, Siena, St.John Fisher (yes, Fisher is ranked ahead of St.John's), Fairfield, Marist and others) did not likewise primarily attract first generation college students from parochial high school schools. The difference is that during the 25 to 40 years the other Catholic colleges raised their academic profile while the brain trust at St.John's was seemingly turned a blind eye to academic reputation. The end result is that today the mothers and fathers of most other Catholic colleges encourage their kids to attend the school they graduated from while St.John's parents encourage their kids to go elsewhere. Sad. Unfortunate. Didn't have to be.

To some extent we are comapring (contrasting) apples and oranges.

Marist, is ranked #10 among schools in The North region.

Average GPA of those enrolled freshman of 3.3
Average SAT (not including Writing Section) 1166

http://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/marist-college-2765/applying/entering-class-stats?int=c6b9e3

Here's where it gets a tad tricky. They have a Freshman enrollment of 1,098

Arguably, I would think that our top 1,098 Freshman would meet the aforementioned achievements.

This is NOT a knock on Marist by any stretch.

Marist is a fine school and has been improving its academic profile meaningfully over the recent past.

It is to simply point out that schools with a much lower number of Freshman have, in many instances, an advantage to us.

That said, and to be fair, schools like DePaul, which have, for all intent and purpose, the "same" Freshman enrollment as we do are ranked higher becuase retention and 6 year graduation rates are better. St. John's is aware of these issues and are working toward improving them through various programs.

Also to be balanced 23% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 10% of their High School Class, compared with 17% for St. John's

52% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 25% of their High School Class, compared with 40% for St. John's.

Some may not know this, but my undergrad alma mater is Marist. When I say Marist is in a different tier than SJU academically for undergrad I do not exaggerate. The students that go there take grades seriously and I was in the minority it seemed coming from a public school. I was also among very few who did not transfer any AP credits...it's the norm for people to graduate early because they were such good students in high school. Marist attracts students from Chaminade, St. Anthony's, and other great private schools. SJU attracts first time college students and low SES backgrounds who historically perform well lower academically. That's not putting anyone down, that's just the truth. Marist accepts around 29% of its applicants while SJU accepts over half (53%) which is nearly double the rate of Marist. Did you know that nationally if you take the schools with the lowest acceptance rates, Marist is among the top 10% most selective? Its nickname is "Harvard on the Hudson" for a reason. The campus is pristine, the students take school very seriously and many have gone on to graduate programs at Ivy League schools as well as Law programs. Villanova is #1 in the North, PC is #2 and Marist is #10...they are all in the same conversation when students apply to these kinds of schools.

In fact, I know people who were rejected from Marist but accepted to Fordham with very good grades. The facilities, campus, academic reputation, school spirit, and prestige all completely blow SJU away. Now before people say "well why are you blasting SJU if you go there?", it's because it's for grad school, not undergrad. I would not go as an undergrad but SJU does have good grad programs i.e. School Psychology, Law, Business, Pharmacy, etc.

Calling Marist "Harvard on the Hudson" is laugahable. I seriously doubt there are (m)any students accepted to Harvard who chose Marist instead.

In terms of your comparison to Fordham acceptance you are leaving out one key fact - Fordham accepts much of their freshman class via early action, and then gets very competitive in the regular process. It's likely your friends who were rejected by Marist but got into Fordham applied early action to Fordham.

Obviously it's exaggerated, it's not meant to be literal. But that is a real saying. If you really believed I meant that Marist could compete with Harvard then we are on 2 different wavelengths here. Obviously not what I meant. As I said...#1 in the North is Nova, #2 is PC and #10 is Marist...Marist is in the conversation with those 2 schools and many students apply to those types. Before you say it, obviously Nova is better, but not in a different tier. From #1 to #10 is not a big leap in college rankings where about 300 are ranked. The secret at Marist is they select the BEST student, not the one from Haiti who couldn't speak any English and was attending college for the first time in their family's history. Maybe SJU can try it.

Thanks for clarifying. Nova is in a different tier. In the Northeast, there is Georgetown, Boston College, and Villanova, all highly selective but each in a different tier than the other. The falloff from there is significant. A kid who applies to Nova as a reach will likely have a school like Marist as a safety choice.

The last sentence is just dead wrong. Nova is a slight reach, but there are tons of students who could go to either. Marist and PC are 2 very common schools with similar vibes that the same groups of students apply to. PC is #2 Nova is #1...stop making it sound like it's night and day because it's not. You must be thinking of Marist from the days Bill O'Reilly attended when it wasn't that known or prestigious. A LOT has changed. Even from the time I graduated in 07 to now 13 a ton has changed. We have interns in the White House, FBI, ESPN, NBC, Fox, etc. and have partnerships with NBC (Marist Poll) and IBM (very close partners). The acceptance rate is 29% and has been going down steadily. When I applied it was at about 43% and that was in 2007. That 3.3 average GPA is definitely lowered by affirmative action acceptances and it hits much harder because the school barely has 5,000 undergrads. Basically if you have lower than a 3.5 Marist is a reach unless you fall in the affirmative action category. They also are one of the few schools that recalculates your GPA. They take out all your BS courses like gym, art, music, etc. and only calculate your GPA based on core subjects i.e. Math, Science, English, etc. Go take a trip there and see for yourself how prestigious it has become.

1160 doesn't get you into Nova. 1260 doesn't get you into Nova. 1320-1330 and you are in range. Any Marist student who scores that high has a great chance of getting into Nova. I'm sure they exist, but with an average SAT of 1160, they must be less than 20% of the school population.

 

[Pleasedontbanmeagain]

Many SJU students of 25-40 years ago were among the first to attend college in their families. Most of their parents did not possess a college degree, especially those who served in WWII and Korea. SJU was so affordable that it was the ONLY choice for a Catholic, private education. As a result, in those years, we had students that never would consider St. John's today. Also, those SJU graduates became successful enough that they could afford better schools for their own kids, which essentially cut off most legacy possibilities. So as the student body doesn't get bright children of bright SJU graduates, the school has had to attract other students to St. John's. Add to the mix that the school, with a diminished Catholic population in Queens, has actually expanded enrollment, and the result is less qualified students than back in the day.

The result is not inevitable - it's a failure to improve the core aspects that make a university great beyond nice buildings.

Beast..... I admire your attempt to spin the argument to defend St.John's failings but you are mistaken if you believe that 25 to 40 years ago that other "Catholic colleges (see: Providence, Villanova, Marguettte, Seton Hall, Siena, St.John Fisher (yes, Fisher is ranked ahead of St.John's), Fairfield, Marist and others) did not likewise primarily attract first generation college students from parochial high school schools. The difference is that during the 25 to 40 years the other Catholic colleges raised their academic profile while the brain trust at St.John's was seemingly turned a blind eye to academic reputation. The end result is that today the mothers and fathers of most other Catholic colleges encourage their kids to attend the school they graduated from while St.John's parents encourage their kids to go elsewhere. Sad. Unfortunate. Didn't have to be.

To some extent we are comapring (contrasting) apples and oranges.

Marist, is ranked #10 among schools in The North region.

Average GPA of those enrolled freshman of 3.3
Average SAT (not including Writing Section) 1166

http://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/marist-college-2765/applying/entering-class-stats?int=c6b9e3

Here's where it gets a tad tricky. They have a Freshman enrollment of 1,098

Arguably, I would think that our top 1,098 Freshman would meet the aforementioned achievements.

This is NOT a knock on Marist by any stretch.

Marist is a fine school and has been improving its academic profile meaningfully over the recent past.

It is to simply point out that schools with a much lower number of Freshman have, in many instances, an advantage to us.

That said, and to be fair, schools like DePaul, which have, for all intent and purpose, the "same" Freshman enrollment as we do are ranked higher becuase retention and 6 year graduation rates are better. St. John's is aware of these issues and are working toward improving them through various programs.

Also to be balanced 23% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 10% of their High School Class, compared with 17% for St. John's

52% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 25% of their High School Class, compared with 40% for St. John's.

Some may not know this, but my undergrad alma mater is Marist. When I say Marist is in a different tier than SJU academically for undergrad I do not exaggerate. The students that go there take grades seriously and I was in the minority it seemed coming from a public school. I was also among very few who did not transfer any AP credits...it's the norm for people to graduate early because they were such good students in high school. Marist attracts students from Chaminade, St. Anthony's, and other great private schools. SJU attracts first time college students and low SES backgrounds who historically perform well lower academically. That's not putting anyone down, that's just the truth. Marist accepts around 29% of its applicants while SJU accepts over half (53%) which is nearly double the rate of Marist. Did you know that nationally if you take the schools with the lowest acceptance rates, Marist is among the top 10% most selective? Its nickname is "Harvard on the Hudson" for a reason. The campus is pristine, the students take school very seriously and many have gone on to graduate programs at Ivy League schools as well as Law programs. Villanova is #1 in the North, PC is #2 and Marist is #10...they are all in the same conversation when students apply to these kinds of schools.

In fact, I know people who were rejected from Marist but accepted to Fordham with very good grades. The facilities, campus, academic reputation, school spirit, and prestige all completely blow SJU away. Now before people say "well why are you blasting SJU if you go there?", it's because it's for grad school, not undergrad. I would not go as an undergrad but SJU does have good grad programs i.e. School Psychology, Law, Business, Pharmacy, etc.

Calling Marist "Harvard on the Hudson" is laugahable. I seriously doubt there are (m)any students accepted to Harvard who chose Marist instead.

In terms of your comparison to Fordham acceptance you are leaving out one key fact - Fordham accepts much of their freshman class via early action, and then gets very competitive in the regular process. It's likely your friends who were rejected by Marist but got into Fordham applied early action to Fordham.

Obviously it's exaggerated, it's not meant to be literal. But that is a real saying. If you really believed I meant that Marist could compete with Harvard then we are on 2 different wavelengths here. Obviously not what I meant. As I said...#1 in the North is Nova, #2 is PC and #10 is Marist...Marist is in the conversation with those 2 schools and many students apply to those types. Before you say it, obviously Nova is better, but not in a different tier. From #1 to #10 is not a big leap in college rankings where about 300 are ranked. The secret at Marist is they select the BEST student, not the one from Haiti who couldn't speak any English and was attending college for the first time in their family's history. Maybe SJU can try it.

Thanks for clarifying. Nova is in a different tier. In the Northeast, there is Georgetown, Boston College, and Villanova, all highly selective but each in a different tier than the other. The falloff from there is significant. A kid who applies to Nova as a reach will likely have a school like Marist as a safety choice.

The last sentence is just dead wrong. Nova is a slight reach, but there are tons of students who could go to either. Marist and PC are 2 very common schools with similar vibes that the same groups of students apply to. PC is #2 Nova is #1...stop making it sound like it's night and day because it's not. You must be thinking of Marist from the days Bill O'Reilly attended when it wasn't that known or prestigious. A LOT has changed. Even from the time I graduated in 07 to now 13 a ton has changed. We have interns in the White House, FBI, ESPN, NBC, Fox, etc. and have partnerships with NBC (Marist Poll) and IBM (very close partners). The acceptance rate is 29% and has been going down steadily. When I applied it was at about 43% and that was in 2007. That 3.3 average GPA is definitely lowered by affirmative action acceptances and it hits much harder because the school barely has 5,000 undergrads. Basically if you have lower than a 3.5 Marist is a reach unless you fall in the affirmative action category. They also are one of the few schools that recalculates your GPA. They take out all your BS courses like gym, art, music, etc. and only calculate your GPA based on core subjects i.e. Math, Science, English, etc. Go take a trip there and see for yourself how prestigious it has become.

1160 doesn't get you into Nova. 1260 doesn't get you into Nova. 1320-1330 and you are in range. Any Marist student who scores that high has a great chance of getting into Nova. I'm sure they exist, but with an average SAT of 1160, they must be less than 20% of the school population.

I know people who had 4.0's and 1800's on the SAT who were wait-listed or denied flat out by Marist. I feel lucky to even have gotten in when I did. No way I'd get in today with the acceptance at only 29%...not many schools in the nation have rates that low. Look around on websites...it's not average, it's not selective, it's usually considered "more selective" or "hard". The scale goes easy, average, selective, more selective, most selective (Ivies and such). The SAT means nothing these days anyway...more and more schools are doing away with it. It's a BS test with low predictive utility. Some people are great students and terrible high-stakes test takers. The SAT measures one thing: how well you can take the SAT.

 

[1and1sju]

The secret at Marist is they select the BEST student, not the one from Haiti who couldn't speak any English and was attending college for the first time in their family's history. Maybe SJU can try it.

So, the better student in your mind is the one who got slightly better test scores but spoke the language natively, had college educated parents, and benefited from private elementary and high schools?
Interesting. Don't want to generalize, but youre doing a great disservice to your own school if you make admissions based purely on test scores.

 

[Pleasedontbanmeagain]

The secret at Marist is they select the BEST student, not the one from Haiti who couldn't speak any English and was attending college for the first time in their family's history. Maybe SJU can try it.

So, the better student in your mind is the one who got slightly better test scores but spoke the language natively, had college educated parents, and benefited from private elementary and high schools?
Interesting. Don't want to generalize, but youre doing a great disservice to your own school if you make admissions based purely on test scores.

I just said the SAT has low predictive value. It's a money-making scheme...just like most tests out there. College Board gets big and fat off these BS tests and more colleges are realizing that it's not a true measure of a student's abilities. IMO if there is going to be any college entrance exam that is required, it should be IQ tests. General IQ is more important than knowing analogies or 9th grade math you forgot as a senior. Unlike the SAT, the best IQ tests out there have solid predictive utility.

Also to add to what you said before, yes it's very likely that kids who went to Chaminade, St. Anthony's, or St. John's the Baptist with 2 college educated parents will be much better students than those from public schools in the inner city who can't speak English. Never said I wanted it to be that way, just stating how it is.

 

[jerseyshorejohnny]

Let's calm down about acceptance rates.

If you want to compare schools that have about equal or nearly equal (at least within reason) freshman classes, that would seem logical.

Comparing a school with 1,000 freshman with another that has 3,000 + CAN BE somewhat misleading.

#31 nationally ranked NYU has an acceptance rate of 35%. Does that mean it is not as selective as Marist ??

#41 nationally ranked Boston University has an acceptance rate of 46%. Does that mean it is not as selective than Marist ??

Both have huge undergrad populations.

 

[jerseyshorejohnny]

The secret at Marist is they select the BEST student, not the one from Haiti who couldn't speak any English and was attending college for the first time in their family's history. Maybe SJU can try it.

So, the better student in your mind is the one who got slightly better test scores but spoke the language natively, had college educated parents, and benefited from private elementary and high schools?
Interesting. Don't want to generalize, but youre doing a great disservice to your own school if you make admissions based purely on test scores.

I just said the SAT has low predictive value. It's a money-making scheme...just like most tests out there. College Board gets big and fat off these BS tests and more colleges are realizing that it's not a true measure of a student's abilities. IMO if there is going to be any college entrance exam that is required, it should be IQ tests. General IQ is more important than knowing analogies or 9th grade math you forgot as a senior. Unlike the SAT, the best IQ tests out there have solid predictive utility.

Also to add to what you said before, yes it's very likely that kids who went to Chaminade, St. Anthony's, or St. John's the Baptist with 2 college educated parents will be much better students than those from public schools in the inner city who can't speak English. Never said I wanted it to be that way, just stating how it is.

Since you are at a Vincentian school, I would hope that you are doing your part to help those Psych undergrads who are from the "inner city".

 

[1and1sju]

The secret at Marist is they select the BEST student, not the one from Haiti who couldn't speak any English and was attending college for the first time in their family's history. Maybe SJU can try it.

So, the better student in your mind is the one who got slightly better test scores but spoke the language natively, had college educated parents, and benefited from private elementary and high schools?
Interesting. Don't want to generalize, but youre doing a great disservice to your own school if you make admissions based purely on test scores.

I just said the SAT has low predictive value. It's a money-making scheme...just like most tests out there. College Board gets big and fat off these BS tests and more colleges are realizing that it's not a true measure of a student's abilities. IMO if there is going to be any college entrance exam that is required, it should be IQ tests. General IQ is more important than knowing analogies or 9th grade math you forgot as a senior. Unlike the SAT, the best IQ tests out there have solid predictive utility.

Also to add to what you said before, yes it's very likely that kids who went to Chaminade, St. Anthony's, or St. John's the Baptist with 2 college educated parents will be much better students than those from public schools in the inner city who can't speak English. Never said I wanted it to be that way, just stating how it is.

Since you are at a Vincentian school, I would hope that you are doing your part to help those Psych undergrads who are from the "inner city".

+1
Also, Joe I would pretty strongly disagree with your statement that the hypothetical students you described would be better students. Again, it's dangerous to generalize, but if student A has a 1200 and has had literally every advantage you can imagine: Chaminade, tutors, summer camp in the poconos; and student B scored an 1130 on a test in his second language, worked 20hrs a week through HS, and came from crappy school district - then yes, I'd say student B has the statistically higher probability to be the better student. And I'm not advocating a quota or anything, it's just allowing admission officers to recognize talent. I'm using the SAT just as a barometer of student success for this discussion by the way, but generally I agree with what you said about it earlier.

I do think JSJ's point is what's important in the larger picture. A school's mission isn't to necessarily improve it's US News ranking. And if it is something the administration considers, it almost certainly shouldn't be the top priority.

 

[beast of the east]

Many SJU students of 25-40 years ago were among the first to attend college in their families. Most of their parents did not possess a college degree, especially those who served in WWII and Korea. SJU was so affordable that it was the ONLY choice for a Catholic, private education. As a result, in those years, we had students that never would consider St. John's today. Also, those SJU graduates became successful enough that they could afford better schools for their own kids, which essentially cut off most legacy possibilities. So as the student body doesn't get bright children of bright SJU graduates, the school has had to attract other students to St. John's. Add to the mix that the school, with a diminished Catholic population in Queens, has actually expanded enrollment, and the result is less qualified students than back in the day.

The result is not inevitable - it's a failure to improve the core aspects that make a university great beyond nice buildings.

Beast..... I admire your attempt to spin the argument to defend St.John's failings but you are mistaken if you believe that 25 to 40 years ago that other "Catholic colleges (see: Providence, Villanova, Marguettte, Seton Hall, Siena, St.John Fisher (yes, Fisher is ranked ahead of St.John's), Fairfield, Marist and others) did not likewise primarily attract first generation college students from parochial high school schools. The difference is that during the 25 to 40 years the other Catholic colleges raised their academic profile while the brain trust at St.John's was seemingly turned a blind eye to academic reputation. The end result is that today the mothers and fathers of most other Catholic colleges encourage their kids to attend the school they graduated from while St.John's parents encourage their kids to go elsewhere. Sad. Unfortunate. Didn't have to be.

To some extent we are comapring (contrasting) apples and oranges.

Marist, is ranked #10 among schools in The North region.

Average GPA of those enrolled freshman of 3.3
Average SAT (not including Writing Section) 1166

http://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/marist-college-2765/applying/entering-class-stats?int=c6b9e3

Here's where it gets a tad tricky. They have a Freshman enrollment of 1,098

Arguably, I would think that our top 1,098 Freshman would meet the aforementioned achievements.

This is NOT a knock on Marist by any stretch.

Marist is a fine school and has been improving its academic profile meaningfully over the recent past.

It is to simply point out that schools with a much lower number of Freshman have, in many instances, an advantage to us.

That said, and to be fair, schools like DePaul, which have, for all intent and purpose, the "same" Freshman enrollment as we do are ranked higher becuase retention and 6 year graduation rates are better. St. John's is aware of these issues and are working toward improving them through various programs.

Also to be balanced 23% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 10% of their High School Class, compared with 17% for St. John's

52% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 25% of their High School Class, compared with 40% for St. John's.

Some may not know this, but my undergrad alma mater is Marist. When I say Marist is in a different tier than SJU academically for undergrad I do not exaggerate. The students that go there take grades seriously and I was in the minority it seemed coming from a public school. I was also among very few who did not transfer any AP credits...it's the norm for people to graduate early because they were such good students in high school. Marist attracts students from Chaminade, St. Anthony's, and other great private schools. SJU attracts first time college students and low SES backgrounds who historically perform well lower academically. That's not putting anyone down, that's just the truth. Marist accepts around 29% of its applicants while SJU accepts over half (53%) which is nearly double the rate of Marist. Did you know that nationally if you take the schools with the lowest acceptance rates, Marist is among the top 10% most selective? Its nickname is "Harvard on the Hudson" for a reason. The campus is pristine, the students take school very seriously and many have gone on to graduate programs at Ivy League schools as well as Law programs. Villanova is #1 in the North, PC is #2 and Marist is #10...they are all in the same conversation when students apply to these kinds of schools.

In fact, I know people who were rejected from Marist but accepted to Fordham with very good grades. The facilities, campus, academic reputation, school spirit, and prestige all completely blow SJU away. Now before people say "well why are you blasting SJU if you go there?", it's because it's for grad school, not undergrad. I would not go as an undergrad but SJU does have good grad programs i.e. School Psychology, Law, Business, Pharmacy, etc.

Calling Marist "Harvard on the Hudson" is laugahable. I seriously doubt there are (m)any students accepted to Harvard who chose Marist instead.

In terms of your comparison to Fordham acceptance you are leaving out one key fact - Fordham accepts much of their freshman class via early action, and then gets very competitive in the regular process. It's likely your friends who were rejected by Marist but got into Fordham applied early action to Fordham.

Obviously it's exaggerated, it's not meant to be literal. But that is a real saying. If you really believed I meant that Marist could compete with Harvard then we are on 2 different wavelengths here. Obviously not what I meant. As I said...#1 in the North is Nova, #2 is PC and #10 is Marist...Marist is in the conversation with those 2 schools and many students apply to those types. Before you say it, obviously Nova is better, but not in a different tier. From #1 to #10 is not a big leap in college rankings where about 300 are ranked. The secret at Marist is they select the BEST student, not the one from Haiti who couldn't speak any English and was attending college for the first time in their family's history. Maybe SJU can try it.

Thanks for clarifying. Nova is in a different tier. In the Northeast, there is Georgetown, Boston College, and Villanova, all highly selective but each in a different tier than the other. The falloff from there is significant. A kid who applies to Nova as a reach will likely have a school like Marist as a safety choice.

The last sentence is just dead wrong. Nova is a slight reach, but there are tons of students who could go to either. Marist and PC are 2 very common schools with similar vibes that the same groups of students apply to. PC is #2 Nova is #1...stop making it sound like it's night and day because it's not. You must be thinking of Marist from the days Bill O'Reilly attended when it wasn't that known or prestigious. A LOT has changed. Even from the time I graduated in 07 to now 13 a ton has changed. We have interns in the White House, FBI, ESPN, NBC, Fox, etc. and have partnerships with NBC (Marist Poll) and IBM (very close partners). The acceptance rate is 29% and has been going down steadily. When I applied it was at about 43% and that was in 2007. That 3.3 average GPA is definitely lowered by affirmative action acceptances and it hits much harder because the school barely has 5,000 undergrads. Basically if you have lower than a 3.5 Marist is a reach unless you fall in the affirmative action category. They also are one of the few schools that recalculates your GPA. They take out all your BS courses like gym, art, music, etc. and only calculate your GPA based on core subjects i.e. Math, Science, English, etc. Go take a trip there and see for yourself how prestigious it has become.

1160 doesn't get you into Nova. 1260 doesn't get you into Nova. 1320-1330 and you are in range. Any Marist student who scores that high has a great chance of getting into Nova. I'm sure they exist, but with an average SAT of 1160, they must be less than 20% of the school population.

I know people who had 4.0's and 1800's on the SAT who were wait-listed or denied flat out by Marist. I feel lucky to even have gotten in when I did. No way I'd get in today with the acceptance at only 29%...not many schools in the nation have rates that low. Look around on websites...it's not average, it's not selective, it's usually considered "more selective" or "hard". The scale goes easy, average, selective, more selective, most selective (Ivies and such). The SAT means nothing these days anyway...more and more schools are doing away with it. It's a BS test with low predictive utility. Some people are great students and terrible high-stakes test takers. The SAT measures one thing: how well you can take the SAT.

You are speaking like a person with a low SAT. Most schools take a good hard look at the SAT, which is more objective that HS grades, many of which are inflated at some schools, some are weighted by honors, some are not. A 90 average at Regis is worth more than a 95 at Chaminade, and a ton more than a 98 at some lesser schools.

 

[Pleasedontbanmeagain]

Many SJU students of 25-40 years ago were among the first to attend college in their families. Most of their parents did not possess a college degree, especially those who served in WWII and Korea. SJU was so affordable that it was the ONLY choice for a Catholic, private education. As a result, in those years, we had students that never would consider St. John's today. Also, those SJU graduates became successful enough that they could afford better schools for their own kids, which essentially cut off most legacy possibilities. So as the student body doesn't get bright children of bright SJU graduates, the school has had to attract other students to St. John's. Add to the mix that the school, with a diminished Catholic population in Queens, has actually expanded enrollment, and the result is less qualified students than back in the day.

The result is not inevitable - it's a failure to improve the core aspects that make a university great beyond nice buildings.

Beast..... I admire your attempt to spin the argument to defend St.John's failings but you are mistaken if you believe that 25 to 40 years ago that other "Catholic colleges (see: Providence, Villanova, Marguettte, Seton Hall, Siena, St.John Fisher (yes, Fisher is ranked ahead of St.John's), Fairfield, Marist and others) did not likewise primarily attract first generation college students from parochial high school schools. The difference is that during the 25 to 40 years the other Catholic colleges raised their academic profile while the brain trust at St.John's was seemingly turned a blind eye to academic reputation. The end result is that today the mothers and fathers of most other Catholic colleges encourage their kids to attend the school they graduated from while St.John's parents encourage their kids to go elsewhere. Sad. Unfortunate. Didn't have to be.

To some extent we are comapring (contrasting) apples and oranges.

Marist, is ranked #10 among schools in The North region.

Average GPA of those enrolled freshman of 3.3
Average SAT (not including Writing Section) 1166

http://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/marist-college-2765/applying/entering-class-stats?int=c6b9e3

Here's where it gets a tad tricky. They have a Freshman enrollment of 1,098

Arguably, I would think that our top 1,098 Freshman would meet the aforementioned achievements.

This is NOT a knock on Marist by any stretch.

Marist is a fine school and has been improving its academic profile meaningfully over the recent past.

It is to simply point out that schools with a much lower number of Freshman have, in many instances, an advantage to us.

That said, and to be fair, schools like DePaul, which have, for all intent and purpose, the "same" Freshman enrollment as we do are ranked higher becuase retention and 6 year graduation rates are better. St. John's is aware of these issues and are working toward improving them through various programs.

Also to be balanced 23% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 10% of their High School Class, compared with 17% for St. John's

52% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 25% of their High School Class, compared with 40% for St. John's.

Some may not know this, but my undergrad alma mater is Marist. When I say Marist is in a different tier than SJU academically for undergrad I do not exaggerate. The students that go there take grades seriously and I was in the minority it seemed coming from a public school. I was also among very few who did not transfer any AP credits...it's the norm for people to graduate early because they were such good students in high school. Marist attracts students from Chaminade, St. Anthony's, and other great private schools. SJU attracts first time college students and low SES backgrounds who historically perform well lower academically. That's not putting anyone down, that's just the truth. Marist accepts around 29% of its applicants while SJU accepts over half (53%) which is nearly double the rate of Marist. Did you know that nationally if you take the schools with the lowest acceptance rates, Marist is among the top 10% most selective? Its nickname is "Harvard on the Hudson" for a reason. The campus is pristine, the students take school very seriously and many have gone on to graduate programs at Ivy League schools as well as Law programs. Villanova is #1 in the North, PC is #2 and Marist is #10...they are all in the same conversation when students apply to these kinds of schools.

In fact, I know people who were rejected from Marist but accepted to Fordham with very good grades. The facilities, campus, academic reputation, school spirit, and prestige all completely blow SJU away. Now before people say "well why are you blasting SJU if you go there?", it's because it's for grad school, not undergrad. I would not go as an undergrad but SJU does have good grad programs i.e. School Psychology, Law, Business, Pharmacy, etc.

Calling Marist "Harvard on the Hudson" is laugahable. I seriously doubt there are (m)any students accepted to Harvard who chose Marist instead.

In terms of your comparison to Fordham acceptance you are leaving out one key fact - Fordham accepts much of their freshman class via early action, and then gets very competitive in the regular process. It's likely your friends who were rejected by Marist but got into Fordham applied early action to Fordham.

Obviously it's exaggerated, it's not meant to be literal. But that is a real saying. If you really believed I meant that Marist could compete with Harvard then we are on 2 different wavelengths here. Obviously not what I meant. As I said...#1 in the North is Nova, #2 is PC and #10 is Marist...Marist is in the conversation with those 2 schools and many students apply to those types. Before you say it, obviously Nova is better, but not in a different tier. From #1 to #10 is not a big leap in college rankings where about 300 are ranked. The secret at Marist is they select the BEST student, not the one from Haiti who couldn't speak any English and was attending college for the first time in their family's history. Maybe SJU can try it.

Thanks for clarifying. Nova is in a different tier. In the Northeast, there is Georgetown, Boston College, and Villanova, all highly selective but each in a different tier than the other. The falloff from there is significant. A kid who applies to Nova as a reach will likely have a school like Marist as a safety choice.

The last sentence is just dead wrong. Nova is a slight reach, but there are tons of students who could go to either. Marist and PC are 2 very common schools with similar vibes that the same groups of students apply to. PC is #2 Nova is #1...stop making it sound like it's night and day because it's not. You must be thinking of Marist from the days Bill O'Reilly attended when it wasn't that known or prestigious. A LOT has changed. Even from the time I graduated in 07 to now 13 a ton has changed. We have interns in the White House, FBI, ESPN, NBC, Fox, etc. and have partnerships with NBC (Marist Poll) and IBM (very close partners). The acceptance rate is 29% and has been going down steadily. When I applied it was at about 43% and that was in 2007. That 3.3 average GPA is definitely lowered by affirmative action acceptances and it hits much harder because the school barely has 5,000 undergrads. Basically if you have lower than a 3.5 Marist is a reach unless you fall in the affirmative action category. They also are one of the few schools that recalculates your GPA. They take out all your BS courses like gym, art, music, etc. and only calculate your GPA based on core subjects i.e. Math, Science, English, etc. Go take a trip there and see for yourself how prestigious it has become.

1160 doesn't get you into Nova. 1260 doesn't get you into Nova. 1320-1330 and you are in range. Any Marist student who scores that high has a great chance of getting into Nova. I'm sure they exist, but with an average SAT of 1160, they must be less than 20% of the school population.

I know people who had 4.0's and 1800's on the SAT who were wait-listed or denied flat out by Marist. I feel lucky to even have gotten in when I did. No way I'd get in today with the acceptance at only 29%...not many schools in the nation have rates that low. Look around on websites...it's not average, it's not selective, it's usually considered "more selective" or "hard". The scale goes easy, average, selective, more selective, most selective (Ivies and such). The SAT means nothing these days anyway...more and more schools are doing away with it. It's a BS test with low predictive utility. Some people are great students and terrible high-stakes test takers. The SAT measures one thing: how well you can take the SAT.

You are speaking like a person with a low SAT. Most schools take a good hard look at the SAT, which is more objective that HS grades, many of which are inflated at some schools, some are weighted by honors, some are not. A 90 average at Regis is worth more than a 95 at Chaminade, and a ton more than a 98 at some lesser schools.

You sound like a College Board representative fighting for the test to remain relevant to rake in more money at the expense of kids. As my teachers and professors have said, the SAT is a test to keep students OUT of college. That's it. It has no benefit to the student. 4 years of coursework and recommendations from teachers will tell you much more than 1 test that measures things you won't even need in college. It's all a money-making scheme...trust me...people get filthy rich off this stuff. That's why tests like these are still in place. It's politics and money and the older I get the more I realize that's why many stupid policies among other things still exist. If there MUST be an "objective measure" then an IQ test would be the most non-discriminatory, most relevant, and most predictive test. Would you rather know someone's IQ or someone's ability to do a 9th grade math problem/questions about analogies? IQ applies to everything. It's not the end all be all don't get me wrong, but it's important and highly correlated with success.

You are wrong about the culture being that the SAT is seen as this very very important indicator by most schools. More and more are actually not requiring SAT grades. By the way, someone said that a 70 point SAT discrepancy should give the advantage to the poor student from the inner city over the Chaminade grad...I agree with you. The problem is they almost never even come that close.

 

[beast of the east]

Many SJU students of 25-40 years ago were among the first to attend college in their families. Most of their parents did not possess a college degree, especially those who served in WWII and Korea. SJU was so affordable that it was the ONLY choice for a Catholic, private education. As a result, in those years, we had students that never would consider St. John's today. Also, those SJU graduates became successful enough that they could afford better schools for their own kids, which essentially cut off most legacy possibilities. So as the student body doesn't get bright children of bright SJU graduates, the school has had to attract other students to St. John's. Add to the mix that the school, with a diminished Catholic population in Queens, has actually expanded enrollment, and the result is less qualified students than back in the day.

The result is not inevitable - it's a failure to improve the core aspects that make a university great beyond nice buildings.

Beast..... I admire your attempt to spin the argument to defend St.John's failings but you are mistaken if you believe that 25 to 40 years ago that other "Catholic colleges (see: Providence, Villanova, Marguettte, Seton Hall, Siena, St.John Fisher (yes, Fisher is ranked ahead of St.John's), Fairfield, Marist and others) did not likewise primarily attract first generation college students from parochial high school schools. The difference is that during the 25 to 40 years the other Catholic colleges raised their academic profile while the brain trust at St.John's was seemingly turned a blind eye to academic reputation. The end result is that today the mothers and fathers of most other Catholic colleges encourage their kids to attend the school they graduated from while St.John's parents encourage their kids to go elsewhere. Sad. Unfortunate. Didn't have to be.

To some extent we are comapring (contrasting) apples and oranges.

Marist, is ranked #10 among schools in The North region.

Average GPA of those enrolled freshman of 3.3
Average SAT (not including Writing Section) 1166

http://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/marist-college-2765/applying/entering-class-stats?int=c6b9e3

Here's where it gets a tad tricky. They have a Freshman enrollment of 1,098

Arguably, I would think that our top 1,098 Freshman would meet the aforementioned achievements.

This is NOT a knock on Marist by any stretch.

Marist is a fine school and has been improving its academic profile meaningfully over the recent past.

It is to simply point out that schools with a much lower number of Freshman have, in many instances, an advantage to us.

That said, and to be fair, schools like DePaul, which have, for all intent and purpose, the "same" Freshman enrollment as we do are ranked higher becuase retention and 6 year graduation rates are better. St. John's is aware of these issues and are working toward improving them through various programs.

Also to be balanced 23% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 10% of their High School Class, compared with 17% for St. John's

52% of DePauls Freshman Class was in the Top 25% of their High School Class, compared with 40% for St. John's.

Some may not know this, but my undergrad alma mater is Marist. When I say Marist is in a different tier than SJU academically for undergrad I do not exaggerate. The students that go there take grades seriously and I was in the minority it seemed coming from a public school. I was also among very few who did not transfer any AP credits...it's the norm for people to graduate early because they were such good students in high school. Marist attracts students from Chaminade, St. Anthony's, and other great private schools. SJU attracts first time college students and low SES backgrounds who historically perform well lower academically. That's not putting anyone down, that's just the truth. Marist accepts around 29% of its applicants while SJU accepts over half (53%) which is nearly double the rate of Marist. Did you know that nationally if you take the schools with the lowest acceptance rates, Marist is among the top 10% most selective? Its nickname is "Harvard on the Hudson" for a reason. The campus is pristine, the students take school very seriously and many have gone on to graduate programs at Ivy League schools as well as Law programs. Villanova is #1 in the North, PC is #2 and Marist is #10...they are all in the same conversation when students apply to these kinds of schools.

In fact, I know people who were rejected from Marist but accepted to Fordham with very good grades. The facilities, campus, academic reputation, school spirit, and prestige all completely blow SJU away. Now before people say "well why are you blasting SJU if you go there?", it's because it's for grad school, not undergrad. I would not go as an undergrad but SJU does have good grad programs i.e. School Psychology, Law, Business, Pharmacy, etc.

Calling Marist "Harvard on the Hudson" is laugahable. I seriously doubt there are (m)any students accepted to Harvard who chose Marist instead.

In terms of your comparison to Fordham acceptance you are leaving out one key fact - Fordham accepts much of their freshman class via early action, and then gets very competitive in the regular process. It's likely your friends who were rejected by Marist but got into Fordham applied early action to Fordham.

Obviously it's exaggerated, it's not meant to be literal. But that is a real saying. If you really believed I meant that Marist could compete with Harvard then we are on 2 different wavelengths here. Obviously not what I meant. As I said...#1 in the North is Nova, #2 is PC and #10 is Marist...Marist is in the conversation with those 2 schools and many students apply to those types. Before you say it, obviously Nova is better, but not in a different tier. From #1 to #10 is not a big leap in college rankings where about 300 are ranked. The secret at Marist is they select the BEST student, not the one from Haiti who couldn't speak any English and was attending college for the first time in their family's history. Maybe SJU can try it.

Thanks for clarifying. Nova is in a different tier. In the Northeast, there is Georgetown, Boston College, and Villanova, all highly selective but each in a different tier than the other. The falloff from there is significant. A kid who applies to Nova as a reach will likely have a school like Marist as a safety choice.

The last sentence is just dead wrong. Nova is a slight reach, but there are tons of students who could go to either. Marist and PC are 2 very common schools with similar vibes that the same groups of students apply to. PC is #2 Nova is #1...stop making it sound like it's night and day because it's not. You must be thinking of Marist from the days Bill O'Reilly attended when it wasn't that known or prestigious. A LOT has changed. Even from the time I graduated in 07 to now 13 a ton has changed. We have interns in the White House, FBI, ESPN, NBC, Fox, etc. and have partnerships with NBC (Marist Poll) and IBM (very close partners). The acceptance rate is 29% and has been going down steadily. When I applied it was at about 43% and that was in 2007. That 3.3 average GPA is definitely lowered by affirmative action acceptances and it hits much harder because the school barely has 5,000 undergrads. Basically if you have lower than a 3.5 Marist is a reach unless you fall in the affirmative action category. They also are one of the few schools that recalculates your GPA. They take out all your BS courses like gym, art, music, etc. and only calculate your GPA based on core subjects i.e. Math, Science, English, etc. Go take a trip there and see for yourself how prestigious it has become.

1160 doesn't get you into Nova. 1260 doesn't get you into Nova. 1320-1330 and you are in range. Any Marist student who scores that high has a great chance of getting into Nova. I'm sure they exist, but with an average SAT of 1160, they must be less than 20% of the school population.

I know people who had 4.0's and 1800's on the SAT who were wait-listed or denied flat out by Marist. I feel lucky to even have gotten in when I did. No way I'd get in today with the acceptance at only 29%...not many schools in the nation have rates that low. Look around on websites...it's not average, it's not selective, it's usually considered "more selective" or "hard". The scale goes easy, average, selective, more selective, most selective (Ivies and such). The SAT means nothing these days anyway...more and more schools are doing away with it. It's a BS test with low predictive utility. Some people are great students and terrible high-stakes test takers. The SAT measures one thing: how well you can take the SAT.

You are speaking like a person with a low SAT. Most schools take a good hard look at the SAT, which is more objective that HS grades, many of which are inflated at some schools, some are weighted by honors, some are not. A 90 average at Regis is worth more than a 95 at Chaminade, and a ton more than a 98 at some lesser schools.

You sound like a College Board representative fighting for the test to remain relevant to rake in more money at the expense of kids. As my teachers and professors have said, the SAT is a test to keep students OUT of college. That's it. It has no benefit to the student. 4 years of coursework and recommendations from teachers will tell you much more than 1 test that measures things you won't even need in college. It's all a money-making scheme...trust me...people get filthy rich off this stuff. That's why tests like these are still in place. It's politics and money and the older I get the more I realize that's why many stupid policies among other things still exist. If there MUST be an "objective measure" then an IQ test would be the most non-discriminatory, most relevant, and most predictive test. Would you rather know someone's IQ or someone's ability to do a 9th grade math problem/questions about analogies? IQ applies to everything. It's not the end all be all don't get me wrong, but it's important and highly correlated with success.

You are wrong about the culture being that the SAT is seen as this very very important indicator by most schools. More and more are actually not requiring SAT grades. By the way, someone said that a 70 point SAT discrepancy should give the advantage to the poor student from the inner city over the Chaminade grad...I agree with you. The problem is they almost never even come that close.

Thanks for a thoughtful response. I am not debating whether the ACT or SAT is an accurate reflection of academic prowess, but what I can tell you, being involved in the process currently, that the only school of about a dozen that we are considering gives students an option not to submit SAT or ACT scores (Holy Cross). Even Holy Cross accepts those scores, but gives exceptional students who may not do as well on standardized tests to let their high school transcript, essay, and application speak for them. As far as I can tell there is not a trend where top schools are discarding SAT/ACT scores.