The Point Guard Debate

Larry Wright said:
Again different style of play but Smith is a much better College player than Darling obviously
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Yes Larry he’s the best player in the sport. And he does it with physical limitations. If you believe in Darlings skill (I do), then he can get past those limitations and be a successful starter. And he can do that without being anywhere near the NPOY.
 
Amaseinyourface said:
Please tell me where athletically they are in different leagues. That is ridiculous statement.
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Literally everything athletically is where Braden Smith is in a completely different league than Dylan Darling. All you have to do is watch one Purdue game to see that Smith is faster, quicker, jumps higher, and has far more body control than Darling could imagine in every single one of those areas.

The reason Darling popped off at Idaho State after not being unplayable at Wazzu wasn't because he's wasn't skilled, it's because he didn't have the athleticism to compete in Pac 12. If Darling had Smith's athleticism he'd probably be an All American too.

This is wildly bad take from someone who generally knows his stuff.
 
Amaseinyourface said:
Yes Larry he’s the best player in the sport. And he does it with physical limitations. If you believe in Darlings skill (I do), then he can get past those limitations and be a successful starter. And he can do that without being anywhere near the NPOY.
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Do you include shooting ability as part of physical limitations?
 
DK... wasn't there a hot rumor in the Discord this summer that Braden was gonna portal...? or was that me just wishing it...
 
Marillac2 said:
I will always beat the dominant PG/combo drum the loudest on this site, but I am happy with Darling. I just wish we could replace one of Seller/Sanon/Jackson with a legit combo that could dish 3-4 assists.
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And not only do we agree on the roster construction, we also agree that of those three the first one voted off MarilLMF Island would be Jackson.

I love Sellers, I am sure you do also. And right now Sanon is ahead of Jackson.
 
MugCostanza said:
Literally everything athletically is where Braden Smith is in a completely different league than Dylan Darling. All you have to do is watch one Purdue game to see that Smith is faster, quicker, jumps higher, and has far more body control than Darling could imagine in every single one of those areas.

The reason Darling popped off at Idaho State after not being unplayable at Wazzu wasn't because he's wasn't skilled, it's because he didn't have the athleticism to compete in Pac 12. If Darling had Smith's athleticism he'd probably be an All American too.

This is wildly bad take from someone who generally knows his stuff.
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I just disagree that they are in different worlds of fastness and quickness. Watched as much of Smith as anyone. The body control is something I’ll need to see more of from Darling and Smith is elite there, but just go see Darlings first basket vs Michigan and tell me he doesn’t have some himself?
 
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EAkadima15 said:
We desperately need Ian Jackson to be a good enough ballhandler to run the offense when Darling is on the bench because Sanon is not capable of being the lead ballhandler. Darling can be a defensive liability, but we're going to have to play him 30 mpg against teams that press effectively until/unless Jackson is capable because Darling is currently leaps and bounds better at dribbling than everyone else.
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Good luck w that. Rick has been clear that Sellers would run things if needed at PG not Ian. I think Ian should not be burdened w running point and should concentrate on his off the ball defensive and offensive responsibilities.
 
lawmanfan said:
You're talking about actual usage as opposed to proper role. Jacoby Brissett is starting for Arizona because their starting QB is hurt. So now he's a "starting QB." But we all know that what he really is is is a backup QB. (And yes I know their starting QB is not awesome either, but let's roll with that example anyway.)

The problem with this team is Pitino brought in Jackson with the idea that he would be the PG. That left him with Sanon, Sellers, and Liotopoulos at the wings. Then he figured he would go swing for the fences and he struck out on four other high-end PGs. So he said OK, I will bring in Darling as the backup PG and we'll be fine because Jackson will be able to play the point.

He then discovered that Jackson can't play the point, which left him with the backup PG as his ONLY PG. It also created a logjam at the SG/wing position which is going to be a problem for him (at the moment solved by shafting Liotopoulos, who really deserves better),.

So then he jammed Sellers into the role to see if he could do it. And he told you this week that he wanted to try Liotopoulos at it but Lefty couldn't handle the press. And he keeps finding minutes for Pohto to see if maybe he can do it.

But at the moment where he's at is that he has a backup PG who he has no choice to play as his primary PG, at least against teams that press (which is going to be everyone who has the slightest ability to do that, I would think).

It is really a miscalculation of epic proportions for a guy who thought he was putting together a Final 4 team. And when you listen to him talk about players not unusually he says things like "people told us" and "we thought" which makes you wonder if he has delegated a bit too much on the scouting front (or if the folks he has scouting maybe whiffed bigtime on the PG spot).

I like Darling. He is tough, he is a good ball handler, he's fast. After the first scrimmage he improved dramatically as a "get the ball up the floor and give it to someone else" guy. His shooting has been unimpressive, but he has scrapped for rebounds which is great. He's a liability on defense and will be when he's playing against guys who are not only better than he is but 5 inches taller and 40 pounds heavier. I would love to have him play 12-14 minutes as a change-of-pace PG to give a starting PG a breather, and to feast on somebody's second unit. It isn't his fault that we don't have a PG to play the other 26-28 minutes.

I think we'll be OK with him in league play with the exception of a few games because the league is meh. But if you look at Darling and you see "PG who plays 30 minutes a game on a Final 4 team," then we just see very different things. Which is fine- the season will tell the tale. Vegas will be a pretty good marker for how much we can get away with, and I am hoping it is more than I think we can. I also think that some other players improving (Sanon is getting there, and hopefully Jackson will also) will help him a lot - it's a team game and if you get lights-out play at 4 other spots (which has yet to happen IMO) then it helps Darling enormously.
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I agree with Paultzman, this is an excellent post. I particularly agree with your comment that Lefty is being shafted. I also particularly that Pitino made a major "miscalculation of epic proportions". I too wonder how Darling will do against 6'5'' or better point guards who post him up. And finally even though CRP was pursuing point guards during the recruiting process, his pursuit may have been half assed because I think he really wanted the Ohio State pg.
 
Amaseinyourface said:
The point is his size does not prevent him from being the best point guard in the country. Simple. Where as you and many have pointed to Darlings many times.

And here’s my lawman/marillac moment of the day. Cause Smith replaced a top freak athlete, top 3 NBA pick at point guard and I’m sure our fans would have been worried sick. This was in November of his freshmen year.
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To me his size has nothing to do with it, he has trouble staying in front of his man on defense. Right now, all our guards do. The dribble penetration is breaking down the D. Last year our guards could guard the ball, so far this year, not so much.
As for offensive ability, quick with the ball, shot not falling so far but looks like he has the ability to run the offense.
 
brooklyn said:
Watched the Florida Miami game last night and saw Miami’s point guard blow by Lee on a regular basis. Fland and Lee shot a combined 0-10 on 3’s and 3-17 from the field overall. Combined 6 assists and 5 t/o’s. Hardly stellar stats against a team projected to finish in the middle of the ACC this year. I say let’s give our “back up” point guard a chance to prove himself before declaring that the sky is falling.
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If we had Lee on our team and he was putting up those stats (25% from the field and 17% from 3) he would be run out of town already.
 
RM86 said:
To me his size has nothing to do with it, he has trouble staying in front of his man on defense. Right now, all our guards do. The dribble penetration is breaking down the D. Last year our guards could guard the ball, so far this year, not so much.
As for offensive ability, quick with the ball, shot not falling so far but looks like he has the ability to run the offense.
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It did not start out that way for the defense last year. Took a couple months for them to become the defensive juggernaut they were last year not just the guards but 1-5. It was a beautiful thing once they got it. Hopefully this group gets it.
 
lawmanfan said:
The problem with this team is Pitino brought in Jackson with the idea that he would be the PG. That left him with Sanon, Sellers, and Liotopoulos at the wings. Then he figured he would go swing for the fences and he struck out on four other high-end PGs. So he said OK, I will bring in Darling as the backup PG and we'll be fine because Jackson will be able to play the point.
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I agree with most of your post, but this is factually inaccurate in a key way imho. Pitino whiffed on 3/4 high-end PGs BEFORE we signed Jackson and Rick anointed him the PG. The fourth was of course Boogie, who was legitimately going through the NBA process and sometimes you just can't wait around.

DeMary committed to UConn 4/3
Wright committed to BYU 4/14
Lee committed to Florida 4/16

Rick never really liked Eliott Cadeau or Malachi Smith, but they committed 3/31 and 4/14, respectively.
We inexplicably made Nate Calmese's final 5 but he committed on 4/18

Even some mid-major targets committed before Jackson, like Nate Johnson (Akron) to K-State on 4/20 and Melvin Council to Kansas on 4/16

Bruce Thornton never even entered the portal, announcing his return to OSU on 4/2.

Those were all guys we at least talked to or had some interest in (with the possible exception of the weird Calmese situation)

Jackson committed 4/21

In other words, Rick's first plan wasn't to bring in Ian Jackson and then maybe add a top PG. It was to grab a top PG first and foremost. Only when they whiffed did they panic and bring in an incredibly talented shooting guard (Ian) hoping he could be the PG. Darling was lingering in the background on ice during that time frame, waiting to see how the situation played out before committing.

And while I think it's a failing by staff, trying to secure an elite point guard and failing in a highly competitive PG market is much less egregious than having Jackson as some type of primary plan at PG before they whiffed on the high-end talent. The timeline is relevant.
 
frankingeneral said:
I agree with most of your post, but this is factually inaccurate in a key way imho. Pitino whiffed on 3/4 high-end PGs BEFORE we signed Jackson and Rick anointed him the PG. The fourth was of course Boogie, who was legitimately going through the NBA process and sometimes you just can't wait around.

DeMary committed to UConn 4/3
Wright committed to BYU 4/14
Lee committed to Florida 4/16

Rick never really liked Eliott Cadeau or Malachi Smith, but they committed 3/31 and 4/14, respectively.
We inexplicably made Nate Calmese's final 5 but he committed on 4/18

Even some mid-major targets committed before Jackson, like Nate Johnson (Akron) to K-State on 4/20 and Melvin Council to Kansas on 4/16

Bruce Thornton never even entered the portal, announcing his return to OSU on 4/2.

Those were all guys we at least talked to or had some interest in (with the possible exception of the weird Calmese situation)

Jackson committed 4/21

In other words, Rick's first plan wasn't to bring in Ian Jackson and then maybe add a top PG. It was to grab a top PG first and foremost. Only when they whiffed did they panic and bring in an incredibly talented shooting guard (Ian) hoping he could be the PG. Darling was lingering in the background on ice during that time frame, waiting to see how the situation played out before committing.

And while I think it's a failing by staff, trying to secure an elite point guard and failing in a highly competitive PG market is much less egregious than having Jackson as some type of primary plan at PG before they whiffed on the high-end talent. The timeline is relevant.
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Thank you very much for that timeline. I have been trying to remember a lot of the dates in my head so this is a big help.
 
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