Yikes... St..John's bar pass rate falls below CUNY

That is really disappointing and really surprising.

When I was there (a long tiome ago), SJU had the highest pass rate in the state, well over 90%

Dean Simons is doing a good job in many respects. The admitted classes have higher and higher standards. This is hard to understand or explain.
 
With a few attorneys in the family who have taken the NYS Bar, I suspect this is a one year aberration. NYS requires knowledge of many of the state's law and if one class of first time takers gets lax in preparation, the % will go down. IMO, passing the Bar has less to do with the quality of the law school and more to do with a small group of students getting adequate preparation help. CUNY has very small graduation rates and test takers and that skews their %.

To redmen west, I doubt you had access to taking the exam on your laptop back in the day and had to hand write your essay. LOL! That leads me to conjecture that the SJL pass rate declined due to a few test takers whose laptops malfunctioned and had to write their answers AND whose handwriting was so illegible that the score suffered. LOL!

SJL grads have been averaging around 87% for years (above the State average) so having 8.3 out of 10 test takers pass versus 8.7 out of 10 is almost statistically meaningless even when compared to the 9 out of 10 for Columbia and NYU.
However, the difference between a Columbia JD and a SJ JD is like the difference between the Big East in 2002 and 2012.
 
Echo those who have commented about how SJU once had the highest pass rate for the bar in NYS. A friend of mine (law review, now my attorney for my business) commented at the time: "At St. John's your don't discuss the merits of the law. There is no philosophical debates that may exist at Harvard. You learn the law, and in class if you try to discuss the law, you get shot down pretty quickly." Can anyone comment on why the pass rate has tailed off, despite the school trying to attract more qualified candiditates.
 
Echo those who have commented about how SJU once had the highest pass rate for the bar in NYS. A friend of mine (law review, now my attorney for my business) commented at the time: "At St. John's your don't discuss the merits of the law. There is no philosophical debates that may exist at Harvard. You learn the law, and in class if you try to discuss the law, you get shot down pretty quickly." Can anyone comment on why the pass rate has tailed off, despite the school trying to attract more qualified candiditates.
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There are more "qualified" candidates than ever at SJU. My niece who graduated over 14 years ago went to class with grads from Duke, NYU, Boston College. Etc. They were smart enough to get into those schools as undergrads but since they were all from Long Island, chose St. John's at the time.
Forty years ago most SJ Law students were previously SJ undergrads, grads from CUNY schools, Hofstra, LIU, etc. Now they come from many more prestigious undergrad schools.
The NYS Bar, from what my niece tells me, has gotten a little more difficult (although not as difficult as in California where even UCLA students do not pass over 70% I think).
Finally, since we are talking a population of 200-400 students in any given year, a school whose students pass at a rate of 8 out 10 is pretty damn good! In the entire State of NY, only Columbia, NYU and Fordham have 9 out 10 that pass the first time around. Although 2nd time around test takers pass at a lower rate, by year 2 out of Law School, 9 out of 10 students become licensed and pass the Bar. That is better than an MBA grad who rarely sniffs a job in a top 100 firm.
 
When I went to STJ Law school 1960-63 : Dean Harold McNiece was a superstar. He literally helped Seton Hall open its Law school. They have a portrait of him in their foyer.
David Segal taught ny practice and federal practice
The boss of all bar review programs was Prof. Sporacio. who taught evidence and anything else under the sun; the last of the universal men. He taught Domestic Relations in my first year and when he told one of the female students to "hold your water" the good Catholic girl turned him in and our replacement was Dean McNiece, a devout Catholic. One morning when McNiece was elsewhere Sporacio filled in for him and told us at the onset " how do you like your new professor instead of using a " necessary gutteral word" he holds up "lettered blocks".

Prof Patrick Rohan taught real and personal property.

quite a staff.

and all ny law as opposed to " Mopey dopery" eg the common law. The more emphasis on " musing" the law leads to less passage of the NY bar.
when patrick rohan became dean he tried to hire non-home grown teachers eg teachers out of harvard, yale, columbia etc. and this was the beginning of the lower ny bar passage rate. this was an attempt to elevate our school to the heights of harvard etc.

so be it.
 
more thoughts, if i wasn't clear, eg. prof. sporacio a will needs to be witnessed by 2 people and he would give you the form. it did not matter that in some other jurisdictions it was otherwise. and so was this example multiplied in all areas of the law. the law of "mopey Dopry " was not the law of NY. harvard teaches "moprey DopreY"

one more thought, a good law school instructs you how to analyze and a methodoligy of approach to a situation. this is the most peculiar and significant attribute a law student can receive, we do that at .
stj couple that with ny law and you have a bar pass equal to no school. you will see it with dean simons
 
St. John's School of Law was and continues to be a very good law school under the capable leadership of Dean Michael Simons.

St. John's challenge is to stay competitive in changing times when law school applications are down by double digit numbers for the 3d consecutive application cycle with more ABA law schools than ever before competiting for the decreased applicant pool. Many law schools are cutting class sizes and attempting to hold costs as students are more timid about graduating with massive debt.

St. John's Law like all other law schools must adapt to the changing trends and not merely rely upon its established reputation.

Below are some stats of New York area in alphabetical order:

Albany
median gpa 3.31
median lsat 153
annual tuition $41,845

Brooklyn
median gpa 3.36
median lsat 165
annual tuition $48,441

Cardozo @ Yeshiva University
median gpa 3.60
median lsat 162
annual tuition $48,370

CUNY
median gpa 3,29
median lsat 155
annual tuition $12,207

Columbia
median gpa 3.72
median lsat 172
annual tuition $52,902

Cornell
median gpa 3.63
median lsat 168
tuition $53,226

Fordham
median gpa 3.53
median lsat 165
annual tuition $47,986

Hofstra
median gpa 3.32
median lsat 159
annual tuition $45,600

New York Law
median gpa 3.22
median lsat 154
annual tuition $47,800

NYU
median gpa 3.71
median lsat 172
annual tuition $50,336

Pace
median gpa 3.42
median lsat 154
annual tuition $40,978

St. John's
median gpa 3.49
median lsat 160
annual tuition $46,450

SUNY Buffalo
median gpa 3.57
median lsat 157
annual tuition $20,718

Syracuse
median gpa 3.36
median lsat 155
annual tuition $45,647

Touro
median gpa 3.18
median lsat 151
annual tuition $41,890

other schools with cross over applications with St. John's

Quinnipiac
median gpa 3.33
median lsat 156
annual tuition $45,050

Seton Hall
median gpa 3.50
median lsat 159
annual tuition $46,840

Now that CUNY has a NY bar pass rate that is competitive with St. John's and other New York area law schools applicants will likely look more favorably upon it because of the big difference in tuition rates.
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cite:
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Perhaps qualified applicants have already been looking at it more favorably due to the big difference in tuition rates and that caused the improvement in the pass rate? Of course the quality of education is important but the quality of the student also goes a long way.
 
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