Way too much focus on this season

R

Ray Morgan

Well-known member
Before someone blows a gasket, everyone has to remember that college basketball is not Major League Baseball. You don't sign some free agents, mix in some young players, add a few veterans nearing the end of their careers, and win one world series before disbanding the team the following year. Building a successful program is a process. If you were to start from scratch, you begin with a strong coaching staff, the allure of a major market and major basketball conference, and add a talented, athletic recruiting class that will be the nucleus for 4 seasons. In his first real recruiting class, coach Lavin already has one near certain NBA talent in homegrown Moe Harkless. We have just started to scratch the surface of Sir Dom's talent. Even with the holes in their games, every other player out there looks better than anyone Norm brought in at this stage of their careers. What's better is they all play hard despite being asked to play out of position or beyond the minutes they are ready for. I call that a pretty good start.

I'm not worried about wins and losses this year. Anyone who thought this would be a breakout year, with 1/3 of the recruiting class missing, was not facing reality. I'll start to worry if no one of impact signs for next season. If we get 2 out of three from the group of Pelle, Gathers and Sampson, it's the rest of the Big East that should be worried come next season. No reason to think the staff can't add another good recruiting class. So stop being concerned about wins and losses as if everyone here bet the over. Watch for individual and team improvement, and pray that coach stays cancer free and continues his recovery. Unlike the Norm years, which were pure damage control, SJU basketball is on the rise, big time. Even a losing record this season can't change that.
 
 I sitll like the way Lavin keeps referencing, " when we add 6 more players for next year". Let these guys get their feet wet. They will stun a few teams this year also. Next year when we add to it, its gonna be a fun ride. We do need a true PG though to go along with Phil,
 
Right now we are very shorthanded and young. This year these players are learning what it is like to play at Div 1 levels. Even against mid-majors it is competition that they have not experienced. With another recruiting class next year and with 30 games played this team will be much improved. Right now we lack depth and height and those are 2 areas that I am sure the staff is working on to upgarde. Enjoy this team W or L for better days are not that far away.
 
Very accurate description by Fran F when describing how difficult it is to work in all new players. He also aluded to how gracious Lavin was to Norm regarding the team being left that way, giving too much credit to Norm when the situation called for criticism. Lavin and coaches did a remarkable job with Norm's bunch last year. The teaching of this team will not stop no matter the outcome. 
 
Great thread. The record this year isn't going to be great. I know that.

Bottom line is we were in for a rebuilding year no matter how you slice it. Even if we had all our guys qualified, it still would take time. You don't win games in college based on your recruiting rankings, that is the harsh reality these kids are finding out. Throw in Lavin's illness, and a brutal schedule. Most freshmen aren't ready to win and especially not on the road. It's all a process. Sucks that we couldn't follow up last year with another successful year but these kids just have too much to learn and aren't ready to play consistently.

I'm not down on these kids at all. To me, Lindsey has been the only disappointment up to this point, I was expecting so much more. If we were going to make a surprising run at the tournament this year, it was going to be because Lindsey was going to carry us there, a la Hardy. I just don't see it. His whole game needs fixing. He's a liability on the floor for us. 
 
 Great post Ray M.

Being a fan requires a balance. Game to game there are gonna be players we're down on, some will look good one week and be the goat the next. And when we're losing like this it's easy to second guess decisions the staff makes whether it was on the recruiting/eligibility trail last summer, or not coming out of the zone soon enough in a game.

Game to game we're all going to have things to criticize. And we should - it's what fans do. It drives a fanbase and a program.


But in the long run, Ray's right. Things are looking up. And I'm betting that at some point later this season we're going to show some signs for optimism.
 
 Just remember that Hardy wasn't Hardy 9 games into his career. It took 1 year and about 10 games into year 2. So Nuri still has time to take over this team.
 
 Was hoping we'd win this Detroit game, but no-go. Regardless, I think the thread is on point. We won't see the great success this season. I'm still hoping to see lots of improvement and us compete til the end of the season, but it won't be a resounding success. We will certainly have a core of players to work with entering next season that are really primed to improve. We're simply too young and too inexperienced to getting done at a level to really do damage this year. These kids need a season under their belts, working with the staff and gaining strength. This team also desperately needs reinforcements in both the frontcourt and backcourt for next season to complete our roster and move forward with a full team. I still love what our players all bring to the table, but after watching tonight, I think we're going to have to wait another season to be able to start seeing a team that can be downright dangerous. Will be interesting to see who Lavin adds to this team. We need a bit of help in a few areas. We need Lavs back as well.
 
 Great thread, Ray. JJ.com has become a circus of late with posters go nuts over this stretch of losses. Did anyone really expect that we'd be a tournament team this year? Even with the trio I thought we'd probably fall shy of .500.

I really like this group...probably because of some combination of low expectations and the awesome potential. We lost tonight, but 84% of our scoring came from four freshman! How good could those four be as juniors?

The stretch they just went through was pretty insane for a group that has been in college for like three months. The Kentucky game was a gift for this group to experience playing the #1 team in the country on the road in one of the toughest arenas to play as a visiting team. At the end of the day, even with only 7 scholarship players, it was only a 22 point difference.

My only real real concern is Nuri. I think Phil will sart to dominate those minutes as the season continues. Nuri is 0-15 from three, les than 60% from the line, doesn't play above average defense, and turns the ball over at an alarming rate. He may just be relegated to the scoring-punch off the bench role when the troops arrive.
 
Before someone blows a gasket, everyone has to remember that college basketball is not Major League Baseball. You don't sign some free agents, mix in some young players, add a few veterans nearing the end of their careers, and win one world series before disbanding the team the following year. Building a successful program is a process. If you were to start from scratch, you begin with a strong coaching staff, the allure of a major market and major basketball conference, and add a talented, athletic recruiting class that will be the nucleus for 4 seasons. In his first real recruiting class, coach Lavin already has one near certain NBA talent in homegrown Moe Harkless. We have just started to scratch the surface of Sir Dom's talent. Even with the holes in their games, every other player out there looks better than anyone Norm brought in at this stage of their careers. What's better is they all play hard despite being asked to play out of position or beyond the minutes they are ready for. I call that a pretty good start.

I'm not worried about wins and losses this year. Anyone who thought this would be a breakout year, with 1/3 of the recruiting class missing, was not facing reality. I'll start to worry if no one of impact signs for next season. If we get 2 out of three from the group of Pelle, Gathers and Sampson, it's the rest of the Big East that should be worried come next season. No reason to think the staff can't add another good recruiting class. So stop being concerned about wins and losses as if everyone here bet the over. Watch for individual and team improvement, and pray that coach stays cancer free and continues his recovery. Unlike the Norm years, which were pure damage control, SJU basketball is on the rise, big time. Even a losing record this season can't change that.
Click to expand...
 

Here's the issue. Let's say you are right and this is truly a throwaway season. How are you going to convince top talent to come to a school that (a) won 10 games this year (b) whose coach has been sickly the entire year? Are you telling me that Sampson, Pelle, Gathers, and others are going to ignore these facts when signing time comes around? Part of the allure around St. John's last year was they were the "new" team with Lavin at the helm. They were pulling off upsets left and right. Now, we are losing to Northeastern and Detroit. Very few recruits are going to look at last night's score and say, "Man, I wanna join that team next year." They aren't going to want to come into a situation with a weak supporting cast. And like it or not, that's what the current group looks like. Outside of Harkless, there really has not been one player who had played on an average level.
 
 Not true at all. What recruits see is plenty of PT in the big east. They know this team is all freshmen. We aren't going to have 10 wins btw. We will get better and have a LOt of games ahead of us. We'll win ig East games as well when we have Amir helping with depth.

The most important thing, which I agree with, is Lavin's return. He needs to come back pretty soon and do it for good. It is imperative we have a healthy, cancer-free and energetic Lavin for the remainder of the season. It will certainly effect recruiting negatively if we don't. I think sometimes we dismiss Lavin's coaching, but our kids generally play better when Lavin is at the helm. Lavin is much more of a motivator and I think maybe a bit more creative with the offense. I know we like to reference Dunlap as our assistant coach guru, but Lavin is a great motivator and adds a different level to the sideline. We need Lavin back. Hope he feels better soon.
 
If you want to kiss off this season, fine.

The thing is 16, 17, 18-year-olds are a very fickle bunch. They tend to gravitate toward the flavor of the week.

So an elite recruit sitting home watching St. John's losing and losing and losing some more in front of a few thousand fans (because we know STJ fans dont show up unless we're winning) may not be all that amped to sign.

Worse than losing is this slow down, ugly ball we're playing. If you want to throw wins and losses to the side, then at least play a style that is somewhat watchable.

Our players may foul out or run out of gas, but at least they will play the kind of ball they're built to play. And the kind of ball elite recruits want to play.

 
 
I'm not down on these kids at all. To me, Lindsey has been the only disappointment up to this point, I was expecting so much more. If we were going to make a surprising run at the tournament this year, it was going to be because Lindsey was going to carry us there, a la Hardy. I just don't see it. His whole game needs fixing. He's a liability on the floor for us. 
Click to expand...

I thought all along that Lindsey would have to be the linchpin for this young group. Albeit, he hasn't played much organized ball in the past few years, I thought he would have to carry this bunch for us to overachieve.

He's the oldest of the bunch, and I was hoping he would be able to give us something ala Hatten. I didn't think he would actually be Hatten-like, but kinda put the team on his back. It's still very early in the season, so things can certainly change. He hasn't been the same since our games at MSG. He's played four consecutive uninspired games.

Quite frankly, as he goes, so does the team. Most could see his game needed some honing, but he was taking full advantage of his strengths earlier. He just seems like a fish out of water at the moment. I believe we're gonna have to put the ball in his hands again. Otherwise, he may not do us much good off the ball.

 
 
 Great thread, Ray. JJ.com has become a circus of late with posters go nuts over this stretch of losses. Did anyone really expect that we'd be a tournament team this year? Even with the trio I thought we'd probably fall shy of .500.

I really like this group...probably because of some combination of low expectations and the awesome potential. We lost tonight, but 84% of our scoring came from four freshman! How good could those four be as juniors?

The stretch they just went through was pretty insane for a group that has been in college for like three months. The Kentucky game was a gift for this group to experience playing the #1 team in the country on the road in one of the toughest arenas to play as a visiting team. At the end of the day, even with only 7 scholarship players, it was only a 22 point difference.

My only real real concern is Nuri. I think Phil will sart to dominate those minutes as the season continues. Nuri is 0-15 from three, les than 60% from the line, doesn't play above average defense, and turns the ball over at an alarming rate. He may just be relegated to the scoring-punch off the bench role when the troops arrive.
Click to expand...
 


I agree Nuri is a concern. Seems like he is playing with zero confidence , the shots he takes and the passes he makes seem forced. The player we saw vs Arizona is nowhere to be found. Dumb fouls, turnovers - he is really a mess right now and it seems to be in his head.

Harkless- Clearly our best player, great footwork, nice form on the jumper. If he gains some weight, and gets stronger he can be a lottery pick after his Jr year.

Sir Dom- What's not to like about this kid? Great name, great hops, sick defender, can hit the open jumper, finishes on the break, energy energy energy- clearly our 2nd best player.

Harrison- Shots aren't falling yet, but it's obvious the kid can play and he will be a very good player for STJ down the road. The shots will fall eventually. Have to love the intensity

GG- Inconsistent, but some motor on this kid. Hopefully Lavin can land a 5 , so GG can play the 4 next year as he is clearly not a 5.

Greene- Not as high on this kid as others, and he isn't a PG but there is no other option right now.

Also can't underestimate how much the team misses Lavin on gameday. Dunlap may be a good x and o guy but you can't replace Lavin's presence on the bench. That may have been a W yesterday if coach was there.
 
In my opinion, the root of his struggles is lack of an outside shot. Most of his problems stem from that. Hardy and Hatten weren't great shooters, but they kep you honest at least, and had could be streaky.

Nuri simply doesn't have any confidence in his outside shot. He was getting to the basket earlier this season, but as the season goes on, teams will start to adjust their defense to stop the drive. You can see the frustration mounting for him because it's not as easy for him to play his game as it use to be, and it's only going to get harder once BE starts.

He needs to focus first and foremost on slowing down just a little, taking care of the ball (sloppy turnovers kill us) and just making simple plays rather than trying to be spectacular.
 
If you want to kiss off this season, fine.

The thing is 16, 17, 18-year-olds are a very fickle bunch. They tend to gravitate toward the flavor of the week.

So an elite recruit sitting home watching St. John's losing and losing and losing some more in front of a few thousand fans (because we know STJ fans dont show up unless we're winning) may not be all that amped to sign.

Worse than losing is this slow down, ugly ball we're playing. If you want to throw wins and losses to the side, then at least play a style that is somewhat watchable.

Our players may foul out or run out of gas, but at least they will play the kind of ball they're built to play. And the kind of ball elite recruits want to play.
Click to expand...

While 17-18 year olds are certainly fickle, the fact Lavin says on national tv this group, plus six more will be the core of the program, makes me confident he has a few recruiting tricks up his sleeve. Plus, Lavin signed high level kids coming off a decade of program decay. I feel good about where the program is going, regardless of the recrord this year.[/quote]
 
If you want to kiss off this season, fine.

The thing is 16, 17, 18-year-olds are a very fickle bunch. They tend to gravitate toward the flavor of the week.

So an elite recruit sitting home watching St. John's losing and losing and losing some more in front of a few thousand fans (because we know STJ fans dont show up unless we're winning) may not be all that amped to sign.

Worse than losing is this slow down, ugly ball we're playing. If you want to throw wins and losses to the side, then at least play a style that is somewhat watchable.

Our players may foul out or run out of gas, but at least they will play the kind of ball they're built to play. And the kind of ball elite recruits want to play.
Click to expand...



While 17-18 year olds are certainly fickle, the fact Lavin says on national tv this group, plus six more will be the core of the program, makes me confident he has a few recruiting tricks up his sleeve. Plus, Lavin signed high level kids coming off a decade of program decay. I feel good about where the program is going, regardless of the recrord this year.
Click to expand...
[/quote] 

I wish I had your optimism.

This program's upward trajectory has taken a detour with the academic casualties this year and subsequent decommitments, the Big East defections and of course Lavin's health.

I hope it's merely a bump in the road and nothing more.
 
It's going to be a loooongg year. It was going to be a long year before the season started, and it's playing out just about as it should. The losses to Arizona, Texas A & M and Kentucky were predictable. The team played better than expected against Arizona and A & M, and the coaches kept the Kentucky game to a reasonable margin despite the obvious huge talent gap between the two teams. Now you have two unexpected losses on your record (NE and DM), which will probably be offset by two unexpected wins someplace down the road.

At the end of the day the team will probably crack double digits in wins, and that's all you could really expect this year. If you were a cockeyed optimist who predicted a national title, or an NCAA bid, or an NIT bid, well, you're probably going to be disappointed.

You can blame Norm if you want, or you can blame the staff for the ineligibles, or you can figure that even with the ineligibles it was still going to be a borderline .500 season since you're basically starting a program from nothing where you have all of one returning player and that player isn't a star. Obviously having Coach on the DL doesn't help a whole lot either.

The question is whether they get better as the season goes on, let's see what happens.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top