The Suicide Of The Liberal Arts

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The Suicide of the Liberal Arts

Indoctrinating students isn’t the same as teaching them. Homer and Shakespeare have much to tell us about how to think and how to live.

By JOHN AGRESTO

Aug. 7, 2015 6:40 p.m. WALL STREET JOURNAL

I was a few minutes early for class. Father Alexander, my high-school sophomore-homeroom teacher, was standing outside the room, cigarette in his mouth, leaning on the doorjamb. “Morning, Father.”

His response was to put his arm across the door. “Agresto,” he said, “I have a question I’ve been thinking about and maybe you can help me.”

“Sure, what’s up?”

“Do you think a person in this day and age can be called well educated who’s never read the ‘Iliad’?” I hadn’t read the “Iliad,” and am not even sure I had heard of it. “Hmmm. Maybe, I don’t see why not. Maybe if he knows other really good stuff . . .” His response was swift. “OK, Agresto, that proves it. You’re even a bigger damn fool than I thought you were.”

***
I grew up in a fairly poor Brooklyn family that didn’t think that much about education. My father was a day laborer in construction—pouring cement, mostly. He thought I should work on the docks. Start by running sandwiches for the guys, he told me. Join the union. Work your way up. There’s good money on the docks. And you’ll always have a job. He had nothing against school, except that if bad times came, working the docks was safer.

I also grew up in a house almost without books. All I remember is an encyclopedia we got from coupons at the grocery store and a set of the “Book of Knowledge” from my cousin Judy. Once in a while I’d head over to the public library and borrow something—a book on tropical fish, a stamp catalog, a book by someone called Levi on pigeons. It never dawned on me to look at what else there was. Who read that stuff anyway?

So now I’m a professor and former university president who grew up without much real childhood reading until eighth grade, two or three years before the “Iliad” question. Sister Mary Gerald asked me one day if I read outside of class. I told her about the pigeon book and the stamp catalog. No, she asked, had I ever read any literature?

Whereupon she pulled out something called “Penrod and Sam,” by a guy named Booth Tarkington. She said I should read it. I did. I can’t say that “Penrod and Sam” is great literature, but it changed a small bit of my neighborhood. Penrod had a club. So my friends and I put together a club. Penrod’s club had a flag; we had a flag. Penrod would climb trees and spy on the surroundings. We had to be content with climbing on cyclone fences.

Who would have thought there was a new way of having adventures, learned from a book? A book, by the way, of things that had never happened. Something had pierced the predictable regularity of everyday street life. And that something was a work of someone’s imagination.

So I started to read, and with the appetite of a man who finally realized he was hungry. I became a reader of fairly passionate likes and dislikes. Dickens was fine, though he could have gotten to the point sooner. O. Henry, Stevenson and later Tolkien, Lewis, Swift.

Even though I thought it was in a terribly sappy poem, when Emily Dickinson said there was “no Frigate like a Book/To take us Lands away,” I knew she was telling the truth.

I didn’t go to the docks but wound up at the Jesuit prep school Sister Mary Gerald told my father I had to attend. Yes, fathers are nearly all-powerful in Italian-American families. But in my 1950s Brooklyn neighborhood, nuns trumped fathers.

Nonetheless, this tension between getting an education—specifically a liberal arts education—and studying something practical or simply going off to work was hardly unique to me. Yes, this “liberal education” is worth something. But so is making, doing, building and working—so is knowing other good stuff. And that tension—between the practical and productive on one hand, and the intellectual and more academic or cultural on the other—has been and still is at the heart of America’s historical ambivalence toward liberal education.

Parents often still ask, “But what exactly does one do with a major in philosophy, classics, lyric poetry, women’s studies, or the literature of oppression and rebellion?” With jobs so scarce, students ask themselves the same questions.

Still, it’s not simply the high cost of higher education, or their supposed uselessness, that has buried today’s liberal arts. More important, professors in the liberal arts have over-promised, or promised wrongly. We have these lovely phrases, like making our students “well-rounded,” that are more or less just words. Are those who study medicine or nursing not “well-rounded”? Are those who major in film studies or contemporary “lit crit” more intellectually worthy than those who study economics and finance?

Often enough over the years I’ve heard my humanities confreres say that a liberal education makes us finer people, more sensitive, more concerned, more humane, even more human. Pretentious shibboleths such as these, expressed in our egalitarian age, are an excellent way to lose one’s audience. And that’s exactly where the liberal arts are today.

Liberal arts has not been killed by parental or student philistinism, or the cupidity of today’s educational institutions whose excessive costs have made the liberal arts into an unattainable luxury. In too many ways the liberal arts have died not by murder but by suicide.

To restore the liberal arts, those of us who teach should begin by thinking about students. Almost all of them have serious questions about major issues, and all of them are looking for answers. What is right? What is love? What do I owe others? What do others owe me? In too many places these are not questions for examination but issues for indoctrination. Instead of guiding young men and women by encouraging them to read history, biography, philosophy and literature, we’d rather debunk the past, deconstruct the authors and dethrone our finest minds and statesmen.

But why would any student spend tens of thousands of dollars and, rather than see the world in all its aspects, instead spend his time being indoctrinated and immersed in the prejudices of the current culture and the opinions of his tendentious professors? The job of teachers is to liberate minds, not capture them.

Reform at the university level will require brave work by deans and presidents. A hundred-course set of “distribution requirements” with minimally guided choice fosters intellectual randomness. Instead, the best faculty should put together a coherent program of core studies to introduce students to the finest books, to alternative answers to the most compelling questions, to great literature and art and pivotal historical events. Contemporary political issues of race, class and gender do not define what’s truly important. That’s the greatest fallacy of higher education today.

Second, find ways to increase interaction with departments of business, engineering, pre-med and the like. Most students will properly go on to work in various vocational, professional or technical fields. They should be offered our civilization’s best work and its broadest vision—but humanities teachers should not begin with the notion that business and law will be “improved” by the humanities. The benefits flow both ways.

Finally, a word to secondary schools and their teachers: You may be the last hope many of your students will have to think broadly and seriously about literature, science, math and history. If they don’t read Homer or Shakespeare, or marvel at the working of the universe, or read and understand the Constitution, they never will. The hope of liberal learning rests on your shoulders. Please don’t shrug.

When properly conceived and taught, the liberal arts do not by themselves make us “better people” or (God knows) more “human.” They don’t exist to make us more “liberal,” at least in the contemporary political sense. But the liberal arts can do something no less wonderful: They can open our eyes.

They show us how to look at the world and the works of civilization in serious and important and even delightful ways. They hold out the possibility that we will know better the truth about many of the most important things. They are the vehicle that carries the amazing things that mankind has made—and the memory of the horrors that mankind has perpetrated—from one age to the next. They teach us how to marvel.

I wasn’t completely wrong when I told Father Alexander that it was fine for people to know “other really good stuff.” Still, he had the better argument. Some literature, even “Penrod and Sam,” might “take us Lands away.” But some of it, perhaps the greater part of it, takes us back to ourselves.

Some of it holds up mirrors labeled “courage” or “friendship” or “smallness of soul,” to see if we can see ourselves in there. It tells stories of Lear’s daughter loving Lear, though her father is a fool. It has us walk with Virgil through the dismal rings of hell and ask at which circle Virgil might turn ’round on us, then walk away and leave us.

While books might not make us more humane, they can surely show us and lead us to examine creativity and desire, love and treachery, giddiness and joy, hope and fear, and facing death alone. They can have us ponder law and justice, the nature of innocence and causes of moral culpability, forms of government and the ordering of societies that can preserve and refine our civilization.

Literary, philosophical and historical studies may not teach us the final and absolute truth about these matters, but they can help us see the great alternatives, and the reasons the best minds have given. None of this is trivial.

I know I would have learned much by working on the Brooklyn docks. Vinnie the butcher and his brother Angel would have opened my eyes to things I’m still clueless about. The pay and job security might have been better than life in academia and government. And, yes, I might have encountered a modern-day Achilles or Hector or Agamemnon. But I think that, at least for me, it was better to meet them first in the “Iliad.”

Mr. Agresto is the former president of St. John’s College in Santa Fe., N.M., and the American University of Iraq.
 
The Suicide of the Liberal Arts

Indoctrinating students isn’t the same as teaching them. Homer and Shakespeare have much to tell us about how to think and how to live.

By JOHN AGRESTO

Aug. 7, 2015 6:40 p.m. WALL STREET JOURNAL

I was a few minutes early for class. Father Alexander, my high-school sophomore-homeroom teacher, was standing outside the room, cigarette in his mouth, leaning on the doorjamb. “Morning, Father.”

His response was to put his arm across the door. “Agresto,” he said, “I have a question I’ve been thinking about and maybe you can help me.”

“Sure, what’s up?”

“Do you think a person in this day and age can be called well educated who’s never read the ‘Iliad’?” I hadn’t read the “Iliad,” and am not even sure I had heard of it. “Hmmm. Maybe, I don’t see why not. Maybe if he knows other really good stuff . . .” His response was swift. “OK, Agresto, that proves it. You’re even a bigger damn fool than I thought you were.”

***
I grew up in a fairly poor Brooklyn family that didn’t think that much about education. My father was a day laborer in construction—pouring cement, mostly. He thought I should work on the docks. Start by running sandwiches for the guys, he told me. Join the union. Work your way up. There’s good money on the docks. And you’ll always have a job. He had nothing against school, except that if bad times came, working the docks was safer.

I also grew up in a house almost without books. All I remember is an encyclopedia we got from coupons at the grocery store and a set of the “Book of Knowledge” from my cousin Judy. Once in a while I’d head over to the public library and borrow something—a book on tropical fish, a stamp catalog, a book by someone called Levi on pigeons. It never dawned on me to look at what else there was. Who read that stuff anyway?

So now I’m a professor and former university president who grew up without much real childhood reading until eighth grade, two or three years before the “Iliad” question. Sister Mary Gerald asked me one day if I read outside of class. I told her about the pigeon book and the stamp catalog. No, she asked, had I ever read any literature?

Whereupon she pulled out something called “Penrod and Sam,” by a guy named Booth Tarkington. She said I should read it. I did. I can’t say that “Penrod and Sam” is great literature, but it changed a small bit of my neighborhood. Penrod had a club. So my friends and I put together a club. Penrod’s club had a flag; we had a flag. Penrod would climb trees and spy on the surroundings. We had to be content with climbing on cyclone fences.

Who would have thought there was a new way of having adventures, learned from a book? A book, by the way, of things that had never happened. Something had pierced the predictable regularity of everyday street life. And that something was a work of someone’s imagination.

So I started to read, and with the appetite of a man who finally realized he was hungry. I became a reader of fairly passionate likes and dislikes. Dickens was fine, though he could have gotten to the point sooner. O. Henry, Stevenson and later Tolkien, Lewis, Swift.

Even though I thought it was in a terribly sappy poem, when Emily Dickinson said there was “no Frigate like a Book/To take us Lands away,” I knew she was telling the truth.

I didn’t go to the docks but wound up at the Jesuit prep school Sister Mary Gerald told my father I had to attend. Yes, fathers are nearly all-powerful in Italian-American families. But in my 1950s Brooklyn neighborhood, nuns trumped fathers.

Nonetheless, this tension between getting an education—specifically a liberal arts education—and studying something practical or simply going off to work was hardly unique to me. Yes, this “liberal education” is worth something. But so is making, doing, building and working—so is knowing other good stuff. And that tension—between the practical and productive on one hand, and the intellectual and more academic or cultural on the other—has been and still is at the heart of America’s historical ambivalence toward liberal education.

Parents often still ask, “But what exactly does one do with a major in philosophy, classics, lyric poetry, women’s studies, or the literature of oppression and rebellion?” With jobs so scarce, students ask themselves the same questions.

Still, it’s not simply the high cost of higher education, or their supposed uselessness, that has buried today’s liberal arts. More important, professors in the liberal arts have over-promised, or promised wrongly. We have these lovely phrases, like making our students “well-rounded,” that are more or less just words. Are those who study medicine or nursing not “well-rounded”? Are those who major in film studies or contemporary “lit crit” more intellectually worthy than those who study economics and finance?

Often enough over the years I’ve heard my humanities confreres say that a liberal education makes us finer people, more sensitive, more concerned, more humane, even more human. Pretentious shibboleths such as these, expressed in our egalitarian age, are an excellent way to lose one’s audience. And that’s exactly where the liberal arts are today.

Liberal arts has not been killed by parental or student philistinism, or the cupidity of today’s educational institutions whose excessive costs have made the liberal arts into an unattainable luxury. In too many ways the liberal arts have died not by murder but by suicide.

To restore the liberal arts, those of us who teach should begin by thinking about students. Almost all of them have serious questions about major issues, and all of them are looking for answers. What is right? What is love? What do I owe others? What do others owe me? In too many places these are not questions for examination but issues for indoctrination. Instead of guiding young men and women by encouraging them to read history, biography, philosophy and literature, we’d rather debunk the past, deconstruct the authors and dethrone our finest minds and statesmen.

But why would any student spend tens of thousands of dollars and, rather than see the world in all its aspects, instead spend his time being indoctrinated and immersed in the prejudices of the current culture and the opinions of his tendentious professors? The job of teachers is to liberate minds, not capture them.

Reform at the university level will require brave work by deans and presidents. A hundred-course set of “distribution requirements” with minimally guided choice fosters intellectual randomness. Instead, the best faculty should put together a coherent program of core studies to introduce students to the finest books, to alternative answers to the most compelling questions, to great literature and art and pivotal historical events. Contemporary political issues of race, class and gender do not define what’s truly important. That’s the greatest fallacy of higher education today.

Second, find ways to increase interaction with departments of business, engineering, pre-med and the like. Most students will properly go on to work in various vocational, professional or technical fields. They should be offered our civilization’s best work and its broadest vision—but humanities teachers should not begin with the notion that business and law will be “improved” by the humanities. The benefits flow both ways.

Finally, a word to secondary schools and their teachers: You may be the last hope many of your students will have to think broadly and seriously about literature, science, math and history. If they don’t read Homer or Shakespeare, or marvel at the working of the universe, or read and understand the Constitution, they never will. The hope of liberal learning rests on your shoulders. Please don’t shrug.

When properly conceived and taught, the liberal arts do not by themselves make us “better people” or (God knows) more “human.” They don’t exist to make us more “liberal,” at least in the contemporary political sense. But the liberal arts can do something no less wonderful: They can open our eyes.

They show us how to look at the world and the works of civilization in serious and important and even delightful ways. They hold out the possibility that we will know better the truth about many of the most important things. They are the vehicle that carries the amazing things that mankind has made—and the memory of the horrors that mankind has perpetrated—from one age to the next. They teach us how to marvel.

I wasn’t completely wrong when I told Father Alexander that it was fine for people to know “other really good stuff.” Still, he had the better argument. Some literature, even “Penrod and Sam,” might “take us Lands away.” But some of it, perhaps the greater part of it, takes us back to ourselves.

Some of it holds up mirrors labeled “courage” or “friendship” or “smallness of soul,” to see if we can see ourselves in there. It tells stories of Lear’s daughter loving Lear, though her father is a fool. It has us walk with Virgil through the dismal rings of hell and ask at which circle Virgil might turn ’round on us, then walk away and leave us.

While books might not make us more humane, they can surely show us and lead us to examine creativity and desire, love and treachery, giddiness and joy, hope and fear, and facing death alone. They can have us ponder law and justice, the nature of innocence and causes of moral culpability, forms of government and the ordering of societies that can preserve and refine our civilization.

Literary, philosophical and historical studies may not teach us the final and absolute truth about these matters, but they can help us see the great alternatives, and the reasons the best minds have given. None of this is trivial.

I know I would have learned much by working on the Brooklyn docks. Vinnie the butcher and his brother Angel would have opened my eyes to things I’m still clueless about. The pay and job security might have been better than life in academia and government. And, yes, I might have encountered a modern-day Achilles or Hector or Agamemnon. But I think that, at least for me, it was better to meet them first in the “Iliad.”

Mr. Agresto is the former president of St. John’s College in Santa Fe., N.M., and the American University of Iraq.

I am going to venture a guess that the same Fr. Alexander that he is talking about is the same one who taught me theology at Xavier some years later: http://cny.org/stories/Father-John-Alexander-SJ,10820?content_source=&category_id=&search_filter=&search_headline=&event_mode=&event_ts_from=&list_type=&order_by=&order_sort=&content_class=&sub_type=obituaries&town_id=

He was teacher and headmaster at Brooklyn Prep prior to its closing, he them came over to Xavier. The giveaway was when he described him leaning against the wall with a cigarette in his mouth. A very common site(in those days) for Fr. A.
 
Dr. Agresto has written an excellent article, formed no doubt by his own education by Jesuits both in high school and at Boston College (he received a PhD from Cornell). Every parent who invests in their own child's secondary education raises these concerns of liberal arts vs. a professional degree. While he doesn't outright say it, liberal arts has become, umm, too liberal, and not in a good way. As Agresto writes, "The job of teachers is to liberate minds, not capture them." The easiest route to a C or worse in many college classrooms is to espouse a world viewpoint in direct contradiction to your professors. A student is in a danger zone academically if they advocate, or merely want to discuss a position of securing our borders, are in favor military action against radical Islamic terrorism, or a smaller budget conscious federal government.

There is an academic elitism that Agresto points out, whereby " I’ve heard my humanities confreres say that a liberal education makes us finer people, more sensitive, more concerned, more humane, even more human. Pretentious shibboleths such as these, expressed in our egalitarian age, are an excellent way to lose one’s audience." We've heard such nonsensical babble in the highest positions in Washington, and frankly Agresto is correct. It's the fastest way to turn the rest of us off.

Great job by Agresto. While Bobby G shows promise, he seems to have the credentials and voice SJU was looking for.
 
The sentences after the quote marks in each paragraph are noteworthy for not being clearly distinguished from the statements of Dr. Agresto. Those of us who view ourselves as radical centrists are always suspicious of advocacy in reaction to "straw men" intellectual oppressors. The content has to stand on its own.
 
The sentences after the quote marks in each paragraph are noteworthy for not being clearly distinguished from the statements of Dr. Agresto. Those of us who view ourselves as radical centrists are always suspicious of advocacy in reaction to "straw men" intellectual oppressors. The content has to stand on its own.

Well you wrote a nice paragraph and I respect you, my reaction to the article is my own and although may be contrary to yours, has its own merits. Advocating to college students a particular doctrine, no matter what that doctrine is, is a form of political propaganda attempting to indoctrinate or persuade at the least, unless of course the school is a religious institution that IS by mission teaching a religious doctrine. Whether you are conservative, liberal, moderate, or libertarian should not matter. However, let's agree that Dr. Agresto's point was not political - but that an academic intelligentsia has deemed a liberal arts degree superior in forming a well rounded individual, as if a professional degree is somehow inferior.
 
I'm afraid that pragmatism is uppermost in the mind of most students nowadays and learning for its own sake is generally viewed as an extravagant waste of time and money rather than an opportunity to come to grips with questions such as the nature of man and why we're here on this planet.

A professor's job is more frustrating than ever because so few students come to college with any frame of reference and even those who do often fail to see any merit in pursuing these questions.

When I went to college I felt privileged to be there. I was thrilled to death being exposed to Homer and Dante and Shakespeare. Now most students seem resentful that they have to listen to such drivel. .
 
I'm afraid that pragmatism is uppermost in the mind of most students nowadays and learning for its own sake is generally viewed as an extravagant waste of time and money rather than an opportunity to come to grips with questions such as the nature of man and why we're here on this planet.

A professor's job is more frustrating than ever because so few students come to college with any frame of reference and even those who do often fail to see any merit in pursuing these questions.

When I went to college I felt privileged to be there. I was thrilled to death being exposed to Homer and Dante and Shakespeare. Now most students seem resentful that they have to listen to such drivel. .


As a college admissions representative, I offer a few points from my observation and interaction with high school students and their parents:

1. Each year, more and more kids are ill prepared to do college level work as freshmen. The percentage of kids who are required to take remedial math and/or English classes before they are permitted to take credit bearing courses is astounding.

2. To a large extent, kids (and their parents) today see college strictly as a means to an end. For what they are paying to go to school, the focus is now more on learning what is necessary to get a good paying job rather than learning for the sake of learning. The fact that approximately 38% of students who earn bachelor degrees are able to do so in 4 years makes the approach of "fast food" learning more appealing, especially to those footing the bill.

3. With the high cost of college education, many people don't see the value in a liberal arts education (or majoring in areas that will not likely lead to employment upon graduation) because they are spending a large sum of money "only" to prepare to go to graduate school and accumulate more debt.
 
I'm afraid that pragmatism is uppermost in the mind of most students nowadays and learning for its own sake is generally viewed as an extravagant waste of time and money rather than an opportunity to come to grips with questions such as the nature of man and why we're here on this planet.

A professor's job is more frustrating than ever because so few students come to college with any frame of reference and even those who do often fail to see any merit in pursuing these questions.

When I went to college I felt privileged to be there. I was thrilled to death being exposed to Homer and Dante and Shakespeare. Now most students seem resentful that they have to listen to such drivel. .


As a college admissions representative, I offer a few points from my observation and interaction with high school students and their parents:

1. Each year, more and more kids are ill prepared to do college level work as freshmen. The percentage of kids who are required to take remedial math and/or English classes before they are permitted to take credit bearing courses is astounding.

2. To a large extent, kids (and their parents) today see college strictly as a means to an end. For what they are paying to go to school, the focus is now more on learning what is necessary to get a good paying job rather than learning for the sake of learning. The fact that approximately 38% of students who earn bachelor degrees are able to do so in 4 years makes the approach of "fast food" learning more appealing, especially to those footing the bill.

3. With the high cost of college education, many people don't see the value in a liberal arts education (or majoring in areas that will not likely lead to employment upon graduation) because they are spending a large sum of money "only" to prepare to go to graduate school and accumulate more debt.

If you don't mind civil dialogue, I'd like to respond to your well stated points:

1) There is a growing academic divide among those prepared to begin a college career, and those who are not. The first group is as prepared as ever, with many in the top 10% of students already taking college level curriculum in HS. I'm not sure what the impact of media and technology are on today's teenagers, but too many spend too much time on video games, TV, and social media, and way too few have done any meaningful reading on their own, or beyond the bare minimum in terms of focus on academics. I interview many recent college grads, and within a few minutes can determine who is well educated, and who isn't.

2) Good subject. As a pragmatist, I chose a major for myself where I could earn a living, and while I didn't force that on my kids, have tried to influence those choices (sometimes to no avail.) Learning for the sake of learning is great, but when 95% of students come out of college with substantial student loan debt, they are going to delay saving for a home, their own retirement, and their own children's educations. Those who graduate with professional degrees do earn more, especially initially, and there is a valid concept of return on investment on a college degree.

3) No argument there.

Thanks for the well thought out comments. As an adult, I enjoy reading historical books, and am rediscovering great writers like Hemingway or Fitzgerald with far greater interest than had I done so as liberal arts subject matter. Not sure when or if I will progress to The Iliad, and I'm not sure that should I choose to do so, will emerge as more enlightened.
 
I'm afraid that pragmatism is uppermost in the mind of most students nowadays and learning for its own sake is generally viewed as an extravagant waste of time and money rather than an opportunity to come to grips with questions such as the nature of man and why we're here on this planet.

A professor's job is more frustrating than ever because so few students come to college with any frame of reference and even those who do often fail to see any merit in pursuing these questions.

quote]

So true.
 
I'm afraid that pragmatism is uppermost in the mind of most students nowadays and learning for its own sake is generally viewed as an extravagant waste of time and money rather than an opportunity to come to grips with questions such as the nature of man and why we're here on this planet.

A professor's job is more frustrating than ever because so few students come to college with any frame of reference and even those who do often fail to see any merit in pursuing these questions.

When I went to college I felt privileged to be there. I was thrilled to death being exposed to Homer and Dante and Shakespeare. Now most students seem resentful that they have to listen to such drivel. .


As a college admissions representative, I offer a few points from my observation and interaction with high school students and their parents:

1. Each year, more and more kids are ill prepared to do college level work as freshmen. The percentage of kids who are required to take remedial math and/or English classes before they are permitted to take credit bearing courses is astounding.

2. To a large extent, kids (and their parents) today see college strictly as a means to an end. For what they are paying to go to school, the focus is now more on learning what is necessary to get a good paying job rather than learning for the sake of learning. The fact that approximately 38% of students who earn bachelor degrees are able to do so in 4 years makes the approach of "fast food" learning more appealing, especially to those footing the bill.

3. With the high cost of college education, many people don't see the value in a liberal arts education (or majoring in areas that will not likely lead to employment upon graduation) because they are spending a large sum of money "only" to prepare to go to graduate school and accumulate more debt.

If you don't mind civil dialogue, I'd like to respond to your well stated points:

1) There is a growing academic divide among those prepared to begin a college career, and those who are not. The first group is as prepared as ever, with many in the top 10% of students already taking college level curriculum in HS. I'm not sure what the impact of media and technology are on today's teenagers, but too many spend too much time on video games, TV, and social media, and way too few have done any meaningful reading on their own, or beyond the bare minimum in terms of focus on academics. I interview many recent college grads, and within a few minutes can determine who is well educated, and who isn't.

2) Good subject. As a pragmatist, I chose a major for myself where I could earn a living, and while I didn't force that on my kids, have tried to influence those choices (sometimes to no avail.) Learning for the sake of learning is great, but when 95% of students come out of college with substantial student loan debt, they are going to delay saving for a home, their own retirement, and their own children's educations. Those who graduate with professional degrees do earn more, especially initially, and there is a valid concept of return on investment on a college degree.

3) No argument there.

Thanks for the well thought out comments. As an adult, I enjoy reading historical books, and am rediscovering great writers like Hemingway or Fitzgerald with far greater interest than had I done so as liberal arts subject matter. Not sure when or if I will progress to The Iliad, and I'm not sure that should I choose to do so, will emerge as more enlightened.


Thanks for your response. One point that I would add involves the taking of college level courses in high school. U.S. News and Reports ranks the "best" high schools in the nation each year. One of their main criteria is the percentage of students in the school who are enrolled in college level courses. In order earn a high ranking, many schools on Long Island have dropped the quantitative and qualitative prerequisites for entry into college level courses that existed for so many years and declared "open season". In those schools, ANY student can virtually opt into any college level course of their choosing, much to the chagrin of those teachers.
 
I'm afraid that pragmatism is uppermost in the mind of most students nowadays and learning for its own sake is generally viewed as an extravagant waste of time and money rather than an opportunity to come to grips with questions such as the nature of man and why we're here on this planet.

A professor's job is more frustrating than ever because so few students come to college with any frame of reference and even those who do often fail to see any merit in pursuing these questions.

When I went to college I felt privileged to be there. I was thrilled to death being exposed to Homer and Dante and Shakespeare. Now most students seem resentful that they have to listen to such drivel. .


As a college admissions representative, I offer a few points from my observation and interaction with high school students and their parents:

1. Each year, more and more kids are ill prepared to do college level work as freshmen. The percentage of kids who are required to take remedial math and/or English classes before they are permitted to take credit bearing courses is astounding.

2. To a large extent, kids (and their parents) today see college strictly as a means to an end. For what they are paying to go to school, the focus is now more on learning what is necessary to get a good paying job rather than learning for the sake of learning. The fact that approximately 38% of students who earn bachelor degrees are able to do so in 4 years makes the approach of "fast food" learning more appealing, especially to those footing the bill.

3. With the high cost of college education, many people don't see the value in a liberal arts education (or majoring in areas that will not likely lead to employment upon graduation) because they are spending a large sum of money "only" to prepare to go to graduate school and accumulate more debt.

1.) Kids are ill prepared for college because for many of them it is the first time in their lives that they are allowed to experience failure. And when they do experience failure, they do not know how to react to it. They are used to being able to get by on very little work and effort because their parents and teachers are afraid of committing the ultimate crime of potentially hurting a child's feelings. When I was growing up, and I'm sure for most of the posters on here it was the same way, you were allowed to get cut from the team, you either won or lost, there were some birthday parties that you weren't invited to, and if you failed, you failed, no questions asked. That's not the way it works anymore. Now, everyone has to be included, kids get these stupid things called participation awards, and if I kid fails its somehow more the teachers fault than the students. We need to go back to a point where we can tell kids that sometimes they just aren't good enough, and eventually they will have to work for things.

2.) This sort of combines 2 and 3, but I think kids and parents are looking at college as more of a business investment rather an educational experience, and which option will give them the biggest ROI. Undergrad tuition is going to cost the same regardless of your major, whether it be liberal arts or finance, so why not go for the one with the largest earning potential. It used to be a situation where kids were encouraged to pursuit a major they were passionate about, but now they are encouraged the pursuit a major that will best help them pay the bills and establish a long career.
 
I'm afraid that pragmatism is uppermost in the mind of most students nowadays and learning for its own sake is generally viewed as an extravagant waste of time and money rather than an opportunity to come to grips with questions such as the nature of man and why we're here on this planet.

A professor's job is more frustrating than ever because so few students come to college with any frame of reference and even those who do often fail to see any merit in pursuing these questions.

When I went to college I felt privileged to be there. I was thrilled to death being exposed to Homer and Dante and Shakespeare. Now most students seem resentful that they have to listen to such drivel. .


As a college admissions representative, I offer a few points from my observation and interaction with high school students and their parents:

1. Each year, more and more kids are ill prepared to do college level work as freshmen. The percentage of kids who are required to take remedial math and/or English classes before they are permitted to take credit bearing courses is astounding.

2. To a large extent, kids (and their parents) today see college strictly as a means to an end. For what they are paying to go to school, the focus is now more on learning what is necessary to get a good paying job rather than learning for the sake of learning. The fact that approximately 38% of students who earn bachelor degrees are able to do so in 4 years makes the approach of "fast food" learning more appealing, especially to those footing the bill.

3. With the high cost of college education, many people don't see the value in a liberal arts education (or majoring in areas that will not likely lead to employment upon graduation) because they are spending a large sum of money "only" to prepare to go to graduate school and accumulate more debt.

1.) Kids are ill prepared for college because for many of them it is the first time in their lives that they are allowed to experience failure. And when they do experience failure, they do not know how to react to it. They are used to being able to get by on very little work and effort because their parents and teachers are afraid of committing the ultimate crime of potentially hurting a child's feelings. When I was growing up, and I'm sure for most of the posters on here it was the same way, you were allowed to get cut from the team, you either won or lost, there were some birthday parties that you weren't invited to, and if you failed, you failed, no questions asked. That's not the way it works anymore. Now, everyone has to be included, kids get these stupid things called participation awards, and if I kid fails its somehow more the teachers fault than the students. We need to go back to a point where we can tell kids that sometimes they just aren't good enough, and eventually they will have to work for things.

2.) This sort of combines 2 and 3, but I think kids and parents are looking at college as more of a business investment rather an educational experience, and which option will give them the biggest ROI. Undergrad tuition is going to cost the same regardless of your major, whether it be liberal arts or finance, so why not go for the one with the largest earning potential. It used to be a situation where kids were encouraged to pursuit a major they were passionate about, but now they are encouraged the pursuit a major that will best help them pay the bills and establish a long career.

I agree with everything you said. In response to item (1) above, the problem doesn't lie with the kids, it lies with the parents. While I am a now college admissions representative, I was a high school teacher and coach for 13 years and a high school principal for more than 20 years. When I was a kid, parents supported the school. If I misbehaved in school, failed an exam, didn't make a team, etc. it was my fault. If someone from school called to tell my dad that I misbehaved, he politely thanked the school for calling and immediately proceeded to discipline me. He never asked me for "my side of the story". There was no other side of the story. Today, in too many cases, parents run to school to argue with teachers and administrators whenever an academic or behavioral issue arises. The mantra of "my kid wouldn't say or do that" is echoed by parents all too often. Kids know that, "lie through their teeth" and play their parents like fiddles. All I can say is that I am glad to be retired!!
 
One thing I also hate is how kids these days no longer have to walk four miles to school in a perpetual blizzard.
 
I'm afraid that pragmatism is uppermost in the mind of most students nowadays and learning for its own sake is generally viewed as an extravagant waste of time and money rather than an opportunity to come to grips with questions such as the nature of man and why we're here on this planet.

A professor's job is more frustrating than ever because so few students come to college with any frame of reference and even those who do often fail to see any merit in pursuing these questions.

When I went to college I felt privileged to be there. I was thrilled to death being exposed to Homer and Dante and Shakespeare. Now most students seem resentful that they have to listen to such drivel. .


As a college admissions representative, I offer a few points from my observation and interaction with high school students and their parents:

1. Each year, more and more kids are ill prepared to do college level work as freshmen. The percentage of kids who are required to take remedial math and/or English classes before they are permitted to take credit bearing courses is astounding.

2. To a large extent, kids (and their parents) today see college strictly as a means to an end. For what they are paying to go to school, the focus is now more on learning what is necessary to get a good paying job rather than learning for the sake of learning. The fact that approximately 38% of students who earn bachelor degrees are able to do so in 4 years makes the approach of "fast food" learning more appealing, especially to those footing the bill.

3. With the high cost of college education, many people don't see the value in a liberal arts education (or majoring in areas that will not likely lead to employment upon graduation) because they are spending a large sum of money "only" to prepare to go to graduate school and accumulate more debt.

If you don't mind civil dialogue, I'd like to respond to your well stated points:

1) There is a growing academic divide among those prepared to begin a college career, and those who are not. The first group is as prepared as ever, with many in the top 10% of students already taking college level curriculum in HS. I'm not sure what the impact of media and technology are on today's teenagers, but too many spend too much time on video games, TV, and social media, and way too few have done any meaningful reading on their own, or beyond the bare minimum in terms of focus on academics. I interview many recent college grads, and within a few minutes can determine who is well educated, and who isn't.

2) Good subject. As a pragmatist, I chose a major for myself where I could earn a living, and while I didn't force that on my kids, have tried to influence those choices (sometimes to no avail.) Learning for the sake of learning is great, but when 95% of students come out of college with substantial student loan debt, they are going to delay saving for a home, their own retirement, and their own children's educations. Those who graduate with professional degrees do earn more, especially initially, and there is a valid concept of return on investment on a college degree.

3) No argument there.

Thanks for the well thought out comments. As an adult, I enjoy reading historical books, and am rediscovering great writers like Hemingway or Fitzgerald with far greater interest than had I done so as liberal arts subject matter. Not sure when or if I will progress to The Iliad, and I'm not sure that should I choose to do so, will emerge as more enlightened.


Thanks for your response. One point that I would add involves the taking of college level courses in high school. U.S. News and Reports ranks the "best" high schools in the nation each year. One of their main criteria is the percentage of students in the school who are enrolled in college level courses. In order earn a high ranking, many schools on Long Island have dropped the quantitative and qualitative prerequisites for entry into college level courses that existed for so many years and declared "open season". In those schools, ANY student can virtually opt into any college level course of their choosing, much to the chagrin of those teachers.

There is a school on LI which is basically above average that has just done that. It's a wealthy area, and parents are beaming now that the school has been proclaimed one of the best schools on LI. The only problem is that schools in other districts send their students to much better schools WITHOUT the benefit of athletic scholarships. To your point, since many of the better schools require a 4 or better (out of 5s) on the exams that follow, college credit is not gained anyway.
 
I'm afraid that pragmatism is uppermost in the mind of most students nowadays and learning for its own sake is generally viewed as an extravagant waste of time and money rather than an opportunity to come to grips with questions such as the nature of man and why we're here on this planet.

A professor's job is more frustrating than ever because so few students come to college with any frame of reference and even those who do often fail to see any merit in pursuing these questions.

When I went to college I felt privileged to be there. I was thrilled to death being exposed to Homer and Dante and Shakespeare. Now most students seem resentful that they have to listen to such drivel. .


As a college admissions representative, I offer a few points from my observation and interaction with high school students and their parents:

1. Each year, more and more kids are ill prepared to do college level work as freshmen. The percentage of kids who are required to take remedial math and/or English classes before they are permitted to take credit bearing courses is astounding.

2. To a large extent, kids (and their parents) today see college strictly as a means to an end. For what they are paying to go to school, the focus is now more on learning what is necessary to get a good paying job rather than learning for the sake of learning. The fact that approximately 38% of students who earn bachelor degrees are able to do so in 4 years makes the approach of "fast food" learning more appealing, especially to those footing the bill.

3. With the high cost of college education, many people don't see the value in a liberal arts education (or majoring in areas that will not likely lead to employment upon graduation) because they are spending a large sum of money "only" to prepare to go to graduate school and accumulate more debt.

If you don't mind civil dialogue, I'd like to respond to your well stated points:

1) There is a growing academic divide among those prepared to begin a college career, and those who are not. The first group is as prepared as ever, with many in the top 10% of students already taking college level curriculum in HS. I'm not sure what the impact of media and technology are on today's teenagers, but too many spend too much time on video games, TV, and social media, and way too few have done any meaningful reading on their own, or beyond the bare minimum in terms of focus on academics. I interview many recent college grads, and within a few minutes can determine who is well educated, and who isn't.

2) Good subject. As a pragmatist, I chose a major for myself where I could earn a living, and while I didn't force that on my kids, have tried to influence those choices (sometimes to no avail.) Learning for the sake of learning is great, but when 95% of students come out of college with substantial student loan debt, they are going to delay saving for a home, their own retirement, and their own children's educations. Those who graduate with professional degrees do earn more, especially initially, and there is a valid concept of return on investment on a college degree.

3) No argument there.

Thanks for the well thought out comments. As an adult, I enjoy reading historical books, and am rediscovering great writers like Hemingway or Fitzgerald with far greater interest than had I done so as liberal arts subject matter. Not sure when or if I will progress to The Iliad, and I'm not sure that should I choose to do so, will emerge as more enlightened.


Thanks for your response. One point that I would add involves the taking of college level courses in high school. U.S. News and Reports ranks the "best" high schools in the nation each year. One of their main criteria is the percentage of students in the school who are enrolled in college level courses. In order earn a high ranking, many schools on Long Island have dropped the quantitative and qualitative prerequisites for entry into college level courses that existed for so many years and declared "open season". In those schools, ANY student can virtually opt into any college level course of their choosing, much to the chagrin of those teachers.

There is a school on LI which is basically above average that has just done that. It's a wealthy area, and parents are beaming now that the school has been proclaimed one of the best schools on LI. The only problem is that schools in other districts send their students to much better schools WITHOUT the benefit of athletic scholarships. To your point, since many of the better schools require a 4 or better (out of 5s) on the exams that follow, college credit is not gained anyway.

There is only 1 on LI? ;)
 
I'm afraid that pragmatism is uppermost in the mind of most students nowadays and learning for its own sake is generally viewed as an extravagant waste of time and money rather than an opportunity to come to grips with questions such as the nature of man and why we're here on this planet.

A professor's job is more frustrating than ever because so few students come to college with any frame of reference and even those who do often fail to see any merit in pursuing these questions.

When I went to college I felt privileged to be there. I was thrilled to death being exposed to Homer and Dante and Shakespeare. Now most students seem resentful that they have to listen to such drivel. .


As a college admissions representative, I offer a few points from my observation and interaction with high school students and their parents:

1. Each year, more and more kids are ill prepared to do college level work as freshmen. The percentage of kids who are required to take remedial math and/or English classes before they are permitted to take credit bearing courses is astounding.

2. To a large extent, kids (and their parents) today see college strictly as a means to an end. For what they are paying to go to school, the focus is now more on learning what is necessary to get a good paying job rather than learning for the sake of learning. The fact that approximately 38% of students who earn bachelor degrees are able to do so in 4 years makes the approach of "fast food" learning more appealing, especially to those footing the bill.

3. With the high cost of college education, many people don't see the value in a liberal arts education (or majoring in areas that will not likely lead to employment upon graduation) because they are spending a large sum of money "only" to prepare to go to graduate school and accumulate more debt.

If you don't mind civil dialogue, I'd like to respond to your well stated points:

1) There is a growing academic divide among those prepared to begin a college career, and those who are not. The first group is as prepared as ever, with many in the top 10% of students already taking college level curriculum in HS. I'm not sure what the impact of media and technology are on today's teenagers, but too many spend too much time on video games, TV, and social media, and way too few have done any meaningful reading on their own, or beyond the bare minimum in terms of focus on academics. I interview many recent college grads, and within a few minutes can determine who is well educated, and who isn't.

2) Good subject. As a pragmatist, I chose a major for myself where I could earn a living, and while I didn't force that on my kids, have tried to influence those choices (sometimes to no avail.) Learning for the sake of learning is great, but when 95% of students come out of college with substantial student loan debt, they are going to delay saving for a home, their own retirement, and their own children's educations. Those who graduate with professional degrees do earn more, especially initially, and there is a valid concept of return on investment on a college degree.

3) No argument there.

Thanks for the well thought out comments. As an adult, I enjoy reading historical books, and am rediscovering great writers like Hemingway or Fitzgerald with far greater interest than had I done so as liberal arts subject matter. Not sure when or if I will progress to The Iliad, and I'm not sure that should I choose to do so, will emerge as more enlightened.


Thanks for your response. One point that I would add involves the taking of college level courses in high school. U.S. News and Reports ranks the "best" high schools in the nation each year. One of their main criteria is the percentage of students in the school who are enrolled in college level courses. In order earn a high ranking, many schools on Long Island have dropped the quantitative and qualitative prerequisites for entry into college level courses that existed for so many years and declared "open season". In those schools, ANY student can virtually opt into any college level course of their choosing, much to the chagrin of those teachers.

There is a school on LI which is basically above average that has just done that. It's a wealthy area, and parents are beaming now that the school has been proclaimed one of the best schools on LI. The only problem is that schools in other districts send their students to much better schools WITHOUT the benefit of athletic scholarships. To your point, since many of the better schools require a 4 or better (out of 5s) on the exams that follow, college credit is not gained anyway.

There is only 1 on LI? ;)


Trust me, there are several more
 
I'm afraid that pragmatism is uppermost in the mind of most students nowadays and learning for its own sake is generally viewed as an extravagant waste of time and money rather than an opportunity to come to grips with questions such as the nature of man and why we're here on this planet.

A professor's job is more frustrating than ever because so few students come to college with any frame of reference and even those who do often fail to see any merit in pursuing these questions.

When I went to college I felt privileged to be there. I was thrilled to death being exposed to Homer and Dante and Shakespeare. Now most students seem resentful that they have to listen to such drivel. .


As a college admissions representative, I offer a few points from my observation and interaction with high school students and their parents:

1. Each year, more and more kids are ill prepared to do college level work as freshmen. The percentage of kids who are required to take remedial math and/or English classes before they are permitted to take credit bearing courses is astounding.

2. To a large extent, kids (and their parents) today see college strictly as a means to an end. For what they are paying to go to school, the focus is now more on learning what is necessary to get a good paying job rather than learning for the sake of learning. The fact that approximately 38% of students who earn bachelor degrees are able to do so in 4 years makes the approach of "fast food" learning more appealing, especially to those footing the bill.

3. With the high cost of college education, many people don't see the value in a liberal arts education (or majoring in areas that will not likely lead to employment upon graduation) because they are spending a large sum of money "only" to prepare to go to graduate school and accumulate more debt.

If you don't mind civil dialogue, I'd like to respond to your well stated points:

1) There is a growing academic divide among those prepared to begin a college career, and those who are not. The first group is as prepared as ever, with many in the top 10% of students already taking college level curriculum in HS. I'm not sure what the impact of media and technology are on today's teenagers, but too many spend too much time on video games, TV, and social media, and way too few have done any meaningful reading on their own, or beyond the bare minimum in terms of focus on academics. I interview many recent college grads, and within a few minutes can determine who is well educated, and who isn't.

2) Good subject. As a pragmatist, I chose a major for myself where I could earn a living, and while I didn't force that on my kids, have tried to influence those choices (sometimes to no avail.) Learning for the sake of learning is great, but when 95% of students come out of college with substantial student loan debt, they are going to delay saving for a home, their own retirement, and their own children's educations. Those who graduate with professional degrees do earn more, especially initially, and there is a valid concept of return on investment on a college degree.

3) No argument there.

Thanks for the well thought out comments. As an adult, I enjoy reading historical books, and am rediscovering great writers like Hemingway or Fitzgerald with far greater interest than had I done so as liberal arts subject matter. Not sure when or if I will progress to The Iliad, and I'm not sure that should I choose to do so, will emerge as more enlightened.


Thanks for your response. One point that I would add involves the taking of college level courses in high school. U.S. News and Reports ranks the "best" high schools in the nation each year. One of their main criteria is the percentage of students in the school who are enrolled in college level courses. In order earn a high ranking, many schools on Long Island have dropped the quantitative and qualitative prerequisites for entry into college level courses that existed for so many years and declared "open season". In those schools, ANY student can virtually opt into any college level course of their choosing, much to the chagrin of those teachers.

There is a school on LI which is basically above average that has just done that. It's a wealthy area, and parents are beaming now that the school has been proclaimed one of the best schools on LI. The only problem is that schools in other districts send their students to much better schools WITHOUT the benefit of athletic scholarships. To your point, since many of the better schools require a 4 or better (out of 5s) on the exams that follow, college credit is not gained anyway.

There is only 1 on LI? ;)


Trust me, there are several more

I'm well aware having 2 kids through LI high schools and one heading next year.
 
I'm afraid that pragmatism is uppermost in the mind of most students nowadays and learning for its own sake is generally viewed as an extravagant waste of time and money rather than an opportunity to come to grips with questions such as the nature of man and why we're here on this planet.

A professor's job is more frustrating than ever because so few students come to college with any frame of reference and even those who do often fail to see any merit in pursuing these questions.

When I went to college I felt privileged to be there. I was thrilled to death being exposed to Homer and Dante and Shakespeare. Now most students seem resentful that they have to listen to such drivel. .


As a college admissions representative, I offer a few points from my observation and interaction with high school students and their parents:

1. Each year, more and more kids are ill prepared to do college level work as freshmen. The percentage of kids who are required to take remedial math and/or English classes before they are permitted to take credit bearing courses is astounding.

2. To a large extent, kids (and their parents) today see college strictly as a means to an end. For what they are paying to go to school, the focus is now more on learning what is necessary to get a good paying job rather than learning for the sake of learning. The fact that approximately 38% of students who earn bachelor degrees are able to do so in 4 years makes the approach of "fast food" learning more appealing, especially to those footing the bill.

3. With the high cost of college education, many people don't see the value in a liberal arts education (or majoring in areas that will not likely lead to employment upon graduation) because they are spending a large sum of money "only" to prepare to go to graduate school and accumulate more debt.

If you don't mind civil dialogue, I'd like to respond to your well stated points:

1) There is a growing academic divide among those prepared to begin a college career, and those who are not. The first group is as prepared as ever, with many in the top 10% of students already taking college level curriculum in HS. I'm not sure what the impact of media and technology are on today's teenagers, but too many spend too much time on video games, TV, and social media, and way too few have done any meaningful reading on their own, or beyond the bare minimum in terms of focus on academics. I interview many recent college grads, and within a few minutes can determine who is well educated, and who isn't.

2) Good subject. As a pragmatist, I chose a major for myself where I could earn a living, and while I didn't force that on my kids, have tried to influence those choices (sometimes to no avail.) Learning for the sake of learning is great, but when 95% of students come out of college with substantial student loan debt, they are going to delay saving for a home, their own retirement, and their own children's educations. Those who graduate with professional degrees do earn more, especially initially, and there is a valid concept of return on investment on a college degree.

3) No argument there.

Thanks for the well thought out comments. As an adult, I enjoy reading historical books, and am rediscovering great writers like Hemingway or Fitzgerald with far greater interest than had I done so as liberal arts subject matter. Not sure when or if I will progress to The Iliad, and I'm not sure that should I choose to do so, will emerge as more enlightened.


Thanks for your response. One point that I would add involves the taking of college level courses in high school. U.S. News and Reports ranks the "best" high schools in the nation each year. One of their main criteria is the percentage of students in the school who are enrolled in college level courses. In order earn a high ranking, many schools on Long Island have dropped the quantitative and qualitative prerequisites for entry into college level courses that existed for so many years and declared "open season". In those schools, ANY student can virtually opt into any college level course of their choosing, much to the chagrin of those teachers.

There is a school on LI which is basically above average that has just done that. It's a wealthy area, and parents are beaming now that the school has been proclaimed one of the best schools on LI. The only problem is that schools in other districts send their students to much better schools WITHOUT the benefit of athletic scholarships. To your point, since many of the better schools require a 4 or better (out of 5s) on the exams that follow, college credit is not gained anyway.

There is only 1 on LI? ;)

Just a little east of you. :)
 
One thing I also hate is how kids these days no longer have to walk four miles to school in a perpetual blizzard.

dude I literally walked to high school every day before I started driving ( maybe 2 miles not 4 ) but since I shower in the morning and would leave with my hair still wet by the time I got to school in the winter my hair was literally ice.

Kids nowadays need to toughen the F up. Try walking into class with a block of ice on your shoulders
 
I'm afraid that pragmatism is uppermost in the mind of most students nowadays and learning for its own sake is generally viewed as an extravagant waste of time and money rather than an opportunity to come to grips with questions such as the nature of man and why we're here on this planet.

A professor's job is more frustrating than ever because so few students come to college with any frame of reference and even those who do often fail to see any merit in pursuing these questions.

When I went to college I felt privileged to be there. I was thrilled to death being exposed to Homer and Dante and Shakespeare. Now most students seem resentful that they have to listen to such drivel. .


As a college admissions representative, I offer a few points from my observation and interaction with high school students and their parents:

1. Each year, more and more kids are ill prepared to do college level work as freshmen. The percentage of kids who are required to take remedial math and/or English classes before they are permitted to take credit bearing courses is astounding.

2. To a large extent, kids (and their parents) today see college strictly as a means to an end. For what they are paying to go to school, the focus is now more on learning what is necessary to get a good paying job rather than learning for the sake of learning. The fact that approximately 38% of students who earn bachelor degrees are able to do so in 4 years makes the approach of "fast food" learning more appealing, especially to those footing the bill.

3. With the high cost of college education, many people don't see the value in a liberal arts education (or majoring in areas that will not likely lead to employment upon graduation) because they are spending a large sum of money "only" to prepare to go to graduate school and accumulate more debt.

If you don't mind civil dialogue, I'd like to respond to your well stated points:

1) There is a growing academic divide among those prepared to begin a college career, and those who are not. The first group is as prepared as ever, with many in the top 10% of students already taking college level curriculum in HS. I'm not sure what the impact of media and technology are on today's teenagers, but too many spend too much time on video games, TV, and social media, and way too few have done any meaningful reading on their own, or beyond the bare minimum in terms of focus on academics. I interview many recent college grads, and within a few minutes can determine who is well educated, and who isn't.

2) Good subject. As a pragmatist, I chose a major for myself where I could earn a living, and while I didn't force that on my kids, have tried to influence those choices (sometimes to no avail.) Learning for the sake of learning is great, but when 95% of students come out of college with substantial student loan debt, they are going to delay saving for a home, their own retirement, and their own children's educations. Those who graduate with professional degrees do earn more, especially initially, and there is a valid concept of return on investment on a college degree.

3) No argument there.

Thanks for the well thought out comments. As an adult, I enjoy reading historical books, and am rediscovering great writers like Hemingway or Fitzgerald with far greater interest than had I done so as liberal arts subject matter. Not sure when or if I will progress to The Iliad, and I'm not sure that should I choose to do so, will emerge as more enlightened.


Thanks for your response. One point that I would add involves the taking of college level courses in high school. U.S. News and Reports ranks the "best" high schools in the nation each year. One of their main criteria is the percentage of students in the school who are enrolled in college level courses. In order earn a high ranking, many schools on Long Island have dropped the quantitative and qualitative prerequisites for entry into college level courses that existed for so many years and declared "open season". In those schools, ANY student can virtually opt into any college level course of their choosing, much to the chagrin of those teachers.

There is a school on LI which is basically above average that has just done that. It's a wealthy area, and parents are beaming now that the school has been proclaimed one of the best schools on LI. The only problem is that schools in other districts send their students to much better schools WITHOUT the benefit of athletic scholarships. To your point, since many of the better schools require a 4 or better (out of 5s) on the exams that follow, college credit is not gained anyway.

There is only 1 on LI? ;)

Just a little east of you. :)


I knew exactly where you meant. Funny a lot of people my neighborhood to go there only to realize the grass isn't always greener. Some can't wait to move back.
 
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