The Myth Of NY's Demise

dustyj

Member
One of the main story lines expressed again and again as Lavin was removed and the news broke about Mullin coming on board is the refrain that NY City basketball talent is not what it once was. This excuse has been used constantly, going all the way back to Jarvis. And let me tell you it is just that, an excuse. New York City may not be cranking out Lew Alcindors every year but it certainly producing NCAA champions, like every year, actually:

Omar Calhoun 2014
Russ Smith 2013
Doron lamb 2012
Kemba walker 2011
Lance Thomas 2010

The press may label St. Johns fans as a finicky bunch but it is exactly the kind of players listed above who should form the bedrock of St. Johns roster. They do exist, and they will stay provided the coach creates the conditions to make them do so.

(P.S. Lance Thomas is from Brooklyn he just went Jersey for High School.)
 
The problem is that the one or two each year end up going to the blue bloods. Beck when there were five or six in a given year, we had a better shot at getting one or two to stay home.
 
100% correct, NY basketball is not dead. The issue is with the rise of prep school options and NJ HS recruiting NYC kids. The PSAL and CHSAA does not have the concentration of talent it once had. NYC is still pumping out great players. Dakari Johnson from Kentucky is from Brooklyn. He just went to HS in Florida.
 
One of the main story lines expressed again and again as Lavin was removed and the news broke about Mullin coming on board is the refrain that NY City basketball talent is not what it once was. This excuse has been used constantly, going all the way back to Jarvis. And let me tell you it is just that, an excuse. New York City may not be cranking out Lew Alcindors every year but it certainly producing NCAA champions, like every year, actually:

Omar Calhoun 2014
Russ Smith 2013
Doron lamb 2012
Kemba walker 2011
Lance Thomas 2010

The press may label St. Johns fans as a finicky bunch but it is exactly the kind of players listed above who should form the bedrock of St. Johns roster. They do exist, and they will stay provided the coach creates the conditions to make them do so.

(P.S. Lance Thomas is from Brooklyn he just went Jersey for High School.)

Nice list and true in fact, all but Calhoun played major roles (starters in fact).
 
The problem is that the one or two each year end up going to the blue bloods. Beck when there were five or six in a given year, we had a better shot at getting one or two to stay home.

Dusty is correct that NY still has players but you are also correct that the overall depth is not what it use to be.
 
I disagree on the depth issue. I believe the depth in the Tri-state is same it is just that the depth and skill of rest of the country has improved tremendously, and "New York Basketball" has spread out. Plus, more and more city kids are leaving at 14...15 years old to prep schools so they lose the connections to the city. Those connections are huge Sealy, Artest, Mullin, etc. had connections with St. Johns starting when they were 11 and 12 years old. You can't recruit that kind of personal loyalty. We need to invest in that connection. Seriously invest, for example, are we giving free MSG upper bowl tickets to every youth basketball program? We have open seats at games why not allocate some of that lost revenue by inviting Basketball Stars of NY, Cavallier, Mo Motion, New York Kids Sports, YBL, Gauchos, BYSC, NYC Vipers, Team Scan, FHBL, NYSC, and Big Apple Basketball kids to attend a game. St. Johns should host one youth program at every game and give them like 60 tickets. That will not only get players thinking about St. Johns but it will make fans of them for life.

The key in my opinion is where St. Johns looks for the New York talent and what the players profile is. We've never been a school that lands the #1 New York City recruit, (Lew Alcinder, Stephon Marbury, Kenny Anderson, etc. etc.) Shoot outs for 4-stars are a waste of time for us. In my opinion, we need to stick to our strength and cultivate rising talents. Syracuse and Louisville have smartly scouted NY and beaten us to 3-stars for years now. They have pipelines that allow them to see who the stars will be before Kentucky sinks their teeth into them (Russ Smith, etc.). Look at Syracuse's class this year, 2 guys from New Jersey and 1 from NY, you've barely heard of them because 'Cuse locked them down early so there is no hype. That is good recruiting but it's also good scouting. Identifying those kids early and making them feel special is the key to our success recruiting NY. The second thing is cultivating the Prep Schools. We should have an advantage with the Prep Schools because so many kids at those schools are from the Tri-State area (players and students) and Mullins son was at a prep school so he must understand the landscape and know many of the coaches.

I also agree with what Francessa said yesterday, St. Johns has always been a place that welcomes transfers (Boo Harvey, Berry, Ron Rowan, Michael Porter, etc.). We need to make sure the word is out that this is a pipeline to St. Johns and those players are welcome here.

Finally, with Mullin, we have a great advantage that if you are upside and are Gym-rat type guy you can learn from the best. St. Johns should be the place to develop your skills. Due to that, I think we need to focus on finding under appreciated guys who can develop their game. The name that pops to mind here is Wally Szczerbiak. There are a number of players in the Tri-State area (particularly on Long Island and Westchester) who have a similar profile to Szczerbiak and Jimmer coming out out of high school we're losing them to Mid-Majors when we focus all of our effort on the Isiah Briscoe's of the world. We need to scout those guys early and make them understand that in Chris Mullin they have a fellow traveler. And we need to add one every year because you need 4 to find the superstar.
 
I disagree on the depth issue. I believe the depth in the Tri-state is same it is just that the depth and skill of rest of the country has improved tremendously, and "New York Basketball" has spread out. Plus, more and more city kids are leaving at 14...15 years old to prep schools so they lose the connections to the city. Those connections are huge Sealy, Artest, Mullin, etc. had connections with St. Johns starting when they were 11 and 12 years old. You can't recruit that kind of personal loyalty. We need to invest in that connection. Seriously invest, for example, are we giving free MSG upper bowl tickets to every youth basketball program? We have open seats at games why not allocate some of that lost revenue by inviting Basketball Stars of NY, Cavallier, Mo Motion, New York Kids Sports, YBL, Gauchos, BYSC, NYC Vipers, Team Scan, FHBL, NYSC, and Big Apple Basketball kids to attend a game. St. Johns should host one youth program at every game and give them like 60 tickets. That will not only get players thinking about St. Johns but it will make fans of them for life.

The key in my opinion is where St. Johns looks for the New York talent and what the players profile is. We've never been a school that lands the #1 New York City recruit, (Lew Alcinder, Stephon Marbury, Kenny Anderson, etc. etc.) Shoot outs for 4-stars are a waste of time for us. In my opinion, we need to stick to our strength and cultivate rising talents. Syracuse and Louisville have smartly scouted NY and beaten us to 3-stars for years now. They have pipelines that allow them to see who the stars will be before Kentucky sinks their teeth into them (Russ Smith, etc.). Look at Syracuse's class this year, 2 guys from New Jersey and 1 from NY, you've barely heard of them because 'Cuse locked them down early so there is no hype. That is good recruiting but it's also good scouting. Identifying those kids early and making them feel special is the key to our success recruiting NY. The second thing is cultivating the Prep Schools. We should have an advantage with the Prep Schools because so many kids at those schools are from the Tri-State area (players and students) and Mullins son was at a prep school so he must understand the landscape and know many of the coaches.

I also agree with what Francessa said yesterday, St. Johns has always been a place that welcomes transfers (Boo Harvey, Berry, Ron Rowan, Michael Porter, etc.). We need to make sure the word is out that this is a pipeline to St. Johns and those players are welcome here.

Finally, with Mullin, we have a great advantage that if you are upside and are Gym-rat type guy you can learn from the best. St. Johns should be the place to develop your skills. Due to that, I think we need to focus on finding under appreciated guys who can develop their game. The name that pops to mind here is Wally Szczerbiak. There are a number of players in the Tri-State area (particularly on Long Island and Westchester) who have a similar profile to Szczerbiak and Jimmer coming out out of high school we're losing them to Mid-Majors when we focus all of our effort on the Isiah Briscoe's of the world. We need to scout those guys early and make them understand that in Chris Mullin they have a fellow traveler. And we need to add one every year because you need 4 to find the superstar.

You want to give away free tickets to youth basketball teams, and then potentially try to recruit them? After you send them the tickets, you might as well send an email to the NCAA and ask them when they would like to start their investigation into the program.
 
One of the main story lines expressed again and again as Lavin was removed and the news broke about Mullin coming on board is the refrain that NY City basketball talent is not what it once was. This excuse has been used constantly, going all the way back to Jarvis. And let me tell you it is just that, an excuse. New York City may not be cranking out Lew Alcindors every year but it certainly producing NCAA champions, like every year, actually:

Omar Calhoun 2014
Russ Smith 2013
Doron lamb 2012
Kemba walker 2011
Lance Thomas 2010

The press may label St. Johns fans as a finicky bunch but it is exactly the kind of players listed above who should form the bedrock of St. Johns roster. They do exist, and they will stay provided the coach creates the conditions to make them do so.

(P.S. Lance Thomas is from Brooklyn he just went Jersey for High School.)

DustyJ,

I fall somewhere in the middle of the NYC in decline debate. This is the largest city in the country, of course we are going to have some great players. Omar Calhoun helped Uconn win that title only slightly more than either of us. He was nowhere to be found on the bench.

It wasn't long ago that we had Omar Cook, and Taliek Brown. They were coming off the heels of guys like Artest, Barkley, Brand, Grant, Glover, Odom, etc. They were followed by Yatta Gaines, Russell Robinson, Ronald Ramon, and Curtis Kelly on the same AAU team. DIdn't Mark Jackson, Earl the Pearl, and Kenny Smith all come out one year from NYC? Guys like Kenny Anderson. It's not the same anymore.

I do agree the demise is exaggerated and we'd be served getting two of the top three or four city kids every year, but I don't think we can survive on NY kids alone.
 
One of the main story lines expressed again and again as Lavin was removed and the news broke about Mullin coming on board is the refrain that NY City basketball talent is not what it once was. This excuse has been used constantly, going all the way back to Jarvis. And let me tell you it is just that, an excuse. New York City may not be cranking out Lew Alcindors every year but it certainly producing NCAA champions, like every year, actually:

Omar Calhoun 2014
Russ Smith 2013
Doron lamb 2012
Kemba walker 2011
Lance Thomas 2010

The press may label St. Johns fans as a finicky bunch but it is exactly the kind of players listed above who should form the bedrock of St. Johns roster. They do exist, and they will stay provided the coach creates the conditions to make them do so.

(P.S. Lance Thomas is from Brooklyn he just went Jersey for High School.)

DustyJ,

I fall somewhere in the middle of the NYC in decline debate. This is the largest city in the country, of course we are going to have some great players. Omar Calhoun helped Uconn win that title only slightly more than either of us. He was nowhere to be found on the bench.

It wasn't long ago that we had Omar Cook, and Taliek Brown. They were coming off the heels of guys like Artest, Barkley, Brand, Grant, Glover, Odom, etc. They were followed by Yatta Gaines, Russell Robinson, Ronald Ramon, and Curtis Kelly on the same AAU team. DIdn't Mark Jackson, Earl the Pearl, and Kenny Smith all come out one year from NYC? Guys like Kenny Anderson. It's not the same anymore.

I do agree the demise is exaggerated and we'd be served getting two of the top three or four city kids every year, but I don't think we can survive on NY kids alone.


There's no reason to survive on NYC kids alone / recruiting here and nationwide are, of course, not mutually exclusive. I'd be surprised if Chris and staff do not seek nyc and the other 49 state recruits. I guess this is an obvious approach. Agree Marillac?
 
jumbo_peanuts you are incorrect. It is not a violation if the events are open to all participating children, its a promotion. And just to be clear, i am not suggesting we get the Gauchos and Team Scan's first team, i am talking about little kids, their coaches and their dads. Dermon Player's program is almost 100% upper class kids, those kids will never play at St. Johns but they should be fans
 
jumbo_peanuts you are incorrect. It is not a violation if the events are open to all participating children, its a promotion. And just to be clear, i am not suggesting we get the Gauchos and Team Scan's first team, i am talking about little kids, their coaches and their dads. Dermon Player's program is almost 100% upper class kids, those kids will never play at St. Johns but they should be fans
DustyJ - I love your plan. I'd like to suggest one enhancement. Now, I'm not sure if this would be legal in the eyes on the NCAA, if some poster with more knowledge could comment on this, it would be great.
My idea is to provide academic support to these kids, in addition to getting them pumped up about SJU basketball. What if the University entered into an academic/sports relationship with these various programs? Have SJU Education majors providing tutoring and academic skills improvement lessons, in addition to tickets to games. The advantages would be many: 1) We have seen far too many kids not qualify for college admission because of issues with grades. Hopefully, that number would decrease. 2) Even if the kid is not a Division 1 level player (or a future player at all), you are preparing that kid for life. A worthy goal which is part of our University mission. 3) As previously mentioned, you are developing a future fan base, and with any luck, some kids would be interested in attending SJU.
In my dream world, this would not be a huge financial burden for the University. I would look to engage the private sector in this endeavor, as it will have long term positive impacts for them as well. Make it the Microsoft/St. John's University Scholar Program....or something like that.
Once again, the NCAA may not like this (after all, they care about student-athletes, right? ;) )
Thoughts and opinions?
 
I don't agree with the premise that it's the demise of NYC basketball. I think NYC still has many very good division 1 players. The problem is that many of them go to prep school now and do not play in a NYC high school whether public or catholic. you have to follow them and know where they go and which of them might want to come back and play at home.
 
All this talk about getting NYC talent. I don't get it. Talent is talent wherever the kids come from! If a kid is talented enough to play D1 college ball, who cares where he comes from! Some kids want to leave nyc and see other things. Can't blame them. But how about kids that want to come to NYC from the rest of the country? Shouldn't we be trying to grab the most talented kids?
 
All this talk about getting NYC talent. I don't get it. Talent is talent wherever the kids come from! If a kid is talented enough to play D1 college ball, who cares where he comes from! Some kids want to leave nyc and see other things. Can't blame them. But how about kids that want to come to NYC from the rest of the country? Shouldn't we be trying to grab the most talented kids?

My thought is the same.... Talent is talent, regardless where the kid resides. I do want us to protect our backyard, if you know what I mean. But we're gonna have to continue to mine the fertile ground throughout the nation.
 
All this talk about getting NYC talent. I don't get it. Talent is talent wherever the kids come from! If a kid is talented enough to play D1 college ball, who cares where he comes from! Some kids want to leave nyc and see other things. Can't blame them. But how about kids that want to come to NYC from the rest of the country? Shouldn't we be trying to grab the most talented kids?
Your 100 percent right. I think Mullen really wants to make this a flagship program, that the NY kids grow up rooting for and will think about playing here. That doesnt mean we cant recruit in other areas as well.
 
All this talk about getting NYC talent. I don't get it. Talent is talent wherever the kids come from! If a kid is talented enough to play D1 college ball, who cares where he comes from! Some kids want to leave nyc and see other things. Can't blame them. But how about kids that want to come to NYC from the rest of the country? Shouldn't we be trying to grab the most talented kids?
Your 100 percent right. I think Mullen really wants to make this a flagship program, that the NY kids grow up rooting for and will think about playing here. That doesnt mean we cant recruit in other areas as well.

Talent is talent and you go get it wherever it is however, you need to take care of your home and backyard. You can't make it easy for Jay Wright, Thompson, Williard or any other coach to come here and get good NY kids without putting up a fight. Kids from NY have always gone away, but there always were some who wanted to stay home and had enough talent to make a difference. You also had the ones that came back home. Schools knew St. John's would at least be in the discussion with kids. That changed when Jarvis decided he didn't need to recruit NY kids (which was because he didn't want to play ball with the AAU scene and alienated not just them, but HS coaches and players themselves with his insults and arrogance and not reading what or who was important in a potential recruits life).

When a kid like Whitehead says, no, not really to a question regarding if there was any backlash for him choosing Seton Hall instead of us, that is a big problem. That means no one thought or cared enough about us to say "hey you should have picked St. Johns." There should be an at least, why not St. John's for any kid who is recruited by us and decides not to come.

In life you always need to take care of your home and back yard otherwise it is a sign of weakness.
 
One of the main story lines expressed again and again as Lavin was removed and the news broke about Mullin coming on board is the refrain that NY City basketball talent is not what it once was. This excuse has been used constantly, going all the way back to Jarvis. And let me tell you it is just that, an excuse. New York City may not be cranking out Lew Alcindors every year but it certainly producing NCAA champions, like every year, actually:

Omar Calhoun 2014
Russ Smith 2013
Doron lamb 2012
Kemba walker 2011
Lance Thomas 2010

The press may label St. Johns fans as a finicky bunch but it is exactly the kind of players listed above who should form the bedrock of St. Johns roster. They do exist, and they will stay provided the coach creates the conditions to make them do so.

(P.S. Lance Thomas is from Brooklyn he just went Jersey for High School.)

DustyJ,

I fall somewhere in the middle of the NYC in decline debate. This is the largest city in the country, of course we are going to have some great players. Omar Calhoun helped Uconn win that title only slightly more than either of us. He was nowhere to be found on the bench.

It wasn't long ago that we had Omar Cook, and Taliek Brown. They were coming off the heels of guys like Artest, Barkley, Brand, Grant, Glover, Odom, etc. They were followed by Yatta Gaines, Russell Robinson, Ronald Ramon, and Curtis Kelly on the same AAU team. DIdn't Mark Jackson, Earl the Pearl, and Kenny Smith all come out one year from NYC? Guys like Kenny Anderson. It's not the same anymore.

I do agree the demise is exaggerated and we'd be served getting two of the top three or four city kids every year, but I don't think we can survive on NY kids alone.

Earl the Pearl? Also don't forget Andre Barrett out of Rice. He was in same class as Cook and Brown and wound up at Seton Hall.
 
All you have to do is drive past empty schoolyards in the spring, summer and fall, and know there is something wrong with NYC bball. I can't speak for everywhere, because I live here, but there was a time where you'd go to a schoolyard, almost any schoolyard, and in prime time you may have fifth winners (I don't even know if the younger guys know what that is), and if you lost you'd sit. There are some kids who've never played schoolyard ball, where even hs stars, even NBA stars have had to prove themselves.
 
All you have to do is drive past empty schoolyards in the spring, summer and fall, and know there is something wrong with NYC bball. I can't speak for everywhere, because I live here, but there was a time where you'd go to a schoolyard, almost any schoolyard, and in prime time you may have fifth winners (I don't even know if the younger guys know what that is), and if you lost you'd sit. There are some kids who've never played schoolyard ball, where even hs stars, even NBA stars have had to prove themselves.

So much truth to this Beast. This from espn a few months back, an interesting read:

http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/11216972/playground-basketball-dying

not just in cities, but the country's basketball culture has gone indoors and aau style. just like the travel baseball teams. do kids play stickball anymore? and yeah, a nyc court will always have action, but it seems like a group of kids can run a court all day without having to play to keep it.

catching up on these posts today, i've thanked Beast like three or four times. Does that put me in a fan club or something?

peace.
 
All you have to do is drive past empty schoolyards in the spring, summer and fall, and know there is something wrong with NYC bball. I can't speak for everywhere, because I live here, but there was a time where you'd go to a schoolyard, almost any schoolyard, and in prime time you may have fifth winners (I don't even know if the younger guys know what that is), and if you lost you'd sit. There are some kids who've never played schoolyard ball, where even hs stars, even NBA stars have had to prove themselves.

So much truth to this Beast. This from espn a few months back, an interesting read:

http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/11216972/playground-basketball-dying

not just in cities, but the country's basketball culture has gone indoors and aau style. just like the travel baseball teams. do kids play stickball anymore? and yeah, a nyc court will always have action, but it seems like a group of kids can run a court all day without having to play to keep it.

catching up on these posts today, i've thanked Beast like three or four times. Does that put me in a fan club or something?

peace.

Hey thanks, Sleek.
 
Back
Top