Talent versus Coaching that is the question

ghostzapper

ghostzapper

Well-known member
2023 $upporter
I like many have been very disappointed with the results of this season. While it is clear there are multiple factors that have led us to the bottom of the Big East this year, it seems to me that the most primary variables that go into winning are the talent level of the players you have and being able to harness and blend that talent successfully by effective coaching. You certainly can't be successful without some talented players, but in addition to that you must have good coaching to let those talented players thrive in a winning system.

Under Norm Roberts it was understood, over time, that pulling in the upper tier recruits was a challenge. Despite that he built a roster with some pretty decent talent. DJ Kennedy, Paris Horne, Justin Burrell, Sean Evans, Malik Boothe, Dwight Hardy and Justin Brownlee were acquired by Roberts and were part of his final, mostly unsuccessful, 17 and 16 season. When he left, the next coach was able to get these players to a level that they never approached under Roberts. The belief here is that most of that new success was due to better coaching and putting the talent they had in a position to be successful.

Our current players definitely have some talent and we have recruited well enough to bring in six new players next year to add to that talent. How that talent is blended, cultivated and nurtured falls to the staff.

For those who feel we don't have enough talent and that our players are below the caliber we need to win I would respectfully disagree with that. To this end I would argue that two of the three top ranked teams are products of rosters that (when recruited) were mostly no better than ours.

Look no futher in the top twenty than to number three Purdue who has no player ranked nearly as high as Shamorie Ponds or Justin Simon. They are made up of a roster with no player in their regular rotation that was ranked within the top eighty of the ESPN top hundred coming out of high school. Number two Virginia has a couple of players on their roster who were regarded on a similar level to a Ponds or a Simon coming out of high school but the level of their recruits are really no better than ours. They have zero top twenty five players on their roster.

It is true that schools like Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina, Duke and Arizona are going to snag the top recruits year in and year out. We should never be comparing ourselves to those schools. That said there are many schools who have built top programs, that are successful year in and year out that have gotten there with the right person leading that program. Now of course part of having the right person to lead the program is rooted in their ability in finding and identifying undervalued talent and getting that talent to thrive within the right system.

Hopefully Chris Mullin will be the person who makes that happen here. I believe he should have enough talent. Keita, Roberts, Williams, Diakite and Brooks are all rated as high or higher than many players that make up the rotations for Purdue or Virginia. Mikey Dixon was unrated by ESPN out of High School but was very successful in his freshman year in D1 at Qunnipiac. Our returning players Ponds, Simon, Clark, Owens, Yakwe and Trimble all can be successful in the right situation in the proper roles.

Matt Painter at Purdue and Tony Bennett at UVA are two of many that have shown that you can rise to significance without snagging the very top rated players. With the type of talent we can attract at St. John's this can happen for us too. That said, it remains to be seen if the parts we have can be blended into a cohesive successful basketball team. Time will tell.
 
Spooky Ramone wrote:

You coach, and I'll recruit, and I'll beat you every time - Frank McGuire

I totally get the McGuire quote Spooky but I feel it is much more complicated than that.

Why are UVA and Purdue better this year than NC, Kentucky, UCLA, Arizona and others who have supposedly higher rated talent? Gonzaga has built themselves into a national power but never has had much access to the McDonald's All American types. Two years ago LSU brought in all world NBA number one Ben Simmons, top fifteen Antonio Blakeney and our own, top tier number thirty nine, recruit Brandon Sampson and was mediocre at best.

Yes Coach McGuire is right you have to bring in talent, but building a successful basketball program is not a rotisserie league operation. There is much more to it than that.
 
Spooky Ramone wrote:

You coach, and I'll recruit, and I'll beat you every time - Frank McGuire

I totally get the McGuire quote Spooky but I feel it is much more complicated than that.

Why are UVA and Purdue better this year than NC, Kentucky, UCLA, Arizona and others who have supposedly higher rated talent? Gonzaga has built themselves into a national power but never has had much access to the McDonald's All American types. Two years ago LSU brought in all world NBA number one Ben Simmons, top fifteen Antonio Blakeney and our own, top tier number thirty nine, recruit Brandon Sampson and was mediocre at best.

Yes Coach McGuire is right you have to bring in talent, but building a successful basketball program is not a rotisserie league operation. There is much more to it than that.
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Ghost, it is Spocky, not Spooky! You have ghosts on the brain!;)
As to your question comparing players, Purdue and Virginia recruit pretty smart players who, just maybe, pay more attention in practice and then execute in game situations instead of hoisting 30 foot airballs. Maybe their parents don't use social media to "correct" coaching decisions. Some coaches, and I think Mullin is one, let players improvise too much. You can get away with that ar Kentucky because of pure talent. You will fail every time at St. John's.
 
Class of 72 wrote:

Ghost, it is Spocky, not Spooky! You have ghosts on the brain!;)
As to your question comparing players, Purdue and Virginia recruit pretty smart players who, just maybe, pay more attention in practice and then execute in game situations instead of hoisting 30 foot airballs. Maybe their parents don't use social media to "correct" coaching decisions. Some coaches, and I think Mullin is one, let players improvise too much. You can get away with that ar Kentucky because of pure talent. You will fail every time at St. John's.

No Ghosts on the brain 72, just dealing with some old man eyes. I guess I need a new prescription. Sorry about that Spocky!!!

So to be clear do you believe that we have a lack of basketball IQ that is an inherent problem in Mullin's recruiting process or is it, in your opinion, more that the lessons aren't either taught properly or learned during practice and that ultimately leads to unstructured and undisciplned play on the court?

If so, either would seem to me to be an indictment of our current coach and would be a tough fix going forward.

 
I like it when things are difficult. Makes succeeding that much sweeter. So I 'd like to keep trying to win with neither.
 
Coaching vs Talent is always a interesting discussion . Harken back to the pre season . With all hands on deck , Ponds, Lovett, Clark , Simon, Yakwe or Owens we were predicted to be 9-9 team and a 5 th or 6thplsce Team .. the chess pieces that Mullin drew up had Ponds Lovett going for 40 a game or more . Simon penciled in for 10 or more and Clark about the same , that’s 60 ppg . Owens , Yakwe , Trimble were penciled in for 12-15 per game all up . Most definitely not enough to win the BE or even , get to a winning record but, mid tier . As soon as Lovett went down , all bets were off . There was no place else on this Roster that Lovett’s 18-20 ppg could be replaced . If Mussini were still here , he might have averaged 10-12 regularly . But, he’s not here . Ellison might have added 8 , maybe less . But, who knew that collectively We would be outrebunded by 10-15 rebounds a game and rarely get any second chance points . Notably due to our front court collectively having little or no skills to get those out backs or, stop the opponent from getting theirs . And , since no one mentions it , I will . Our 2 stalwart guards , Lovett and Ponds are smurf sized for their positions in the BE . Their games rely on speed , quickness to the basket , good mid range shooting and the ability to drain the 3 at a decent Percentage . But, all that was contingent on all parts of the team hitting on all cylinders and getting those points in all our games . Lovett and Ponds together created all sorts of opponent defenses . Without 1 or the other , the whole boat crashes . Which is what happened . Mullin recruting ? Getting Ponds to come here , gets a A . Convincing the Lavin recruited Lovett to come after Steve left is also a A grade . Simon and Clark were nice additions to the Roster but, Players who lacked all the pieces for them to be Starters at Arizona and Mich State respectively .,They came here for starter minutes . We took them because in Year 2 Mulliin still needed to build a competitive BE Roster . Neither Clark or Simon are impact players , in the mold of Lovett and Ponds who are ., . This is not a team of deadly outside shooters that can rely on 10 or more3’s a game . Next year , it appears our Roster will have more pieces to the puzzle . A nice mixture of Transfers , New freshman recruits and a red shirt . All up they should fill in some of the holes of this year’s team . We probably still need a big 5 th year Post Player who brings experience and a inside game . We are missing the true Post man for several years and difficult to win in the BE without a decent inside game . We don’t have one now .
 
Bottom line, over the past decade, St. John's has employed just one real basketball coach (Mike Dunlap). Inexplicably, we are seemingly adverse to having an Xs and Os guy on our bench.

Keep Mullin and add another recruiter and an experienced assistant. With the talent we have coming in, that will do wonders.
 
Obviously you need some type of talent to win. But you don't need top ranked recruits to win in college. In the NBA talent usually wins out but not so much in college. Coaching is the difference maker in the college game. Good coach with a system that he knows like the back of his hand combined with experienced players who believe in and are willing to execute that system night in and night out are what makes good programs.
Look at all the best programs they all have good coaches. Those coaches who just recruit top talent but can't coach never win. You need the right players not the highest ranked. If you haven't noticed the one and done teams are starting to get exposed. Experienced players are much more valuable in college.
Kids who care about their teams and not just looking out for themselves. Guys who have a few years in a system and who are disciplined. Accountability, being able to take criticism and build on it. Guys willing to make sacrifices for the better of the team. Doing the little things like talking on defense, diving for loose balls, finding a body and boxing out for rebounds.
Now if top recruits would stay 4 years like the old days and actually learn how to win then stars and rankings and all that would matter more because you'd have elite prospects with experience ala UNC last year. Anyway I think you guys get the idea. Also those people who think if Mullin doesn't work out no one will can't be serious. I could name probably 10 coaches off the top of my head that would coach circles around him and would probably take the St. John's job if it were offered for 2 mil a year. Don't get me wrong I want Mullin to succeed, but I don't think he will be here after his 1st contract is up.
 
You guys overreact too much. Just a month ago you guys were praising Mullin for having a 10-2 record that featured wins over multiple top 100 teams. Nobody said anything about coaching being a issue. So I’m not buying that Chris Mullin went from a good coach to trash in a month.

Just deal with the situation. Marcus Lovett went down and the guy who gives you 15-17 ppg, plays defense, stabilized the rotation, controls pace and sets up other players nicely is gone.

^^^ That’s your season. Some will make the argument, why not sign another player to strength depth? Well, we did and he was taken away behind our back. Oh well (shrugs)

I believe we have both coaching and talent, we just lacked depth.

The talent showed when we almost beat a loaded seton hall team on the road and were up double digits on Xavier.

The coaching showed when we went 10-2 earlier this year and when we finished 7-11 last year ( +6 improvement) and wins of 40 at Syracuse and a win over number 13 Butler.

Just wait this out.
 
IT has to do with evaluating talent that is not a 4 or 5 but a 2 or 3 which can become a 4 or 5 Sleepers that programs like ours need since we are not UK Arizona etc Find these players they come in all sizes.
Question is does our staff have the talent to find them and coach them past their current potential This seems like our path until we as a program staring winning
 
There are two sides to every story. As Bill Parcells said "You are what you're record is" which is pretty pathetic, at least league wise but tonight's point spread is four and one half vs the sixth best rated team in the country which would translate to about nine on a neutral floor.
That doesn't seem as bad as the record shows. This week looks brutal but let the season play out and when we start reading some good reports about the incoming freshmen or red shirts things will appear brighter.
 
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