Pointer or Garrett?

M

Marillac

Active member
They coexisted the first year because of the lack of depth, but it became clear last year it would be one or the other for a big role. The baseball wildcard really held Garrett back. Skill is obviously a lower priority than athletic ability and potential to the staff, so Garrett stood little chance. How many of you wold trade Pointer for Garrett at this point? You all know I was always a big fan of Garrett.

Pointer
-Positives: Other-worldly athleticism, great competitive attitude, seems like a great teammate, solid (but certainly not great) defender with exceptional help d and ability to jump passing lanes. Great vision. Solid 2 pt FG%, respectable at the FT line. Tremendous shot-blocker for a wing. Is usually the catalyst and center stage in our biggest runs.

-Negatives: Plays outside of his abilities far too often, extremely inconsistent, awful offensive rebounder (0.6 per game in 24 minutes), no ability to correctly play screens, horrible outside shooter, poor handle, and poor decision-making in key moments. Very unaware of his weaknesses and tightens up in big spots.

Garrett
Positives: Extremely savvy basketball player, unmatched hustle on the court, ability to take his man off the bounce a handful of times per game, extremely versatile defensively (often guarding guys 4-5 inches taller like Jefferson of Baylor). Our best offensive rebounder last year at 1.8 per game in just 20 minutes (3x what Dom is averaging this year with 4 more minutes per game and .5 more than Dom averaged when he was playing over 30 mpg as a frosh). Played out of position for us for two years and sacrificed his body over and over. Decent shot-blocker for a wing. Good shooting % from two and decent (27.%) from three in only 11 attempts. Dangerous and skilled on the baseline.

Negatives: Baseball, baseball, baseball. Poor FT shooting stats in limited attempts, relied on left hand too much (but still had the lefty advantage), while an above average athlete was not on the same level as Dom (who is?), missed A TON of chippies down low against bigger, stronger defenders.

If I had my choice, I'd go for Garrett. I think he would be around 33-35% from three this year, he is always a threat to drive and was always very aggressive taking it at his man. His drives were probably our best offense last year, even if he was lefty-dominant. His offensive rebounding was also huge for us and would have only improved with more playing time and added muscle. I remember him hitting the deck several times because of his tenacity on the boards. My favorite Garrett play was off a drive by Greene/Harrison where the weak side vacated to help and left Christian Jones about 5 feet from the completely unprotected weak side. In the time it took Christian Jones to take one step to passively wait for the rebound, Garret--who left with the shot--covered about 10-12 feet, went 3-4 feet over Jones, got the ball at its highest point, and put it off the glass for two.

Who would you guys take?
 
I thought that game last year, where Garrett was like 0-10 from the line, really destroyed him. He was never the same after that, IMO.

Pointer, OTOH, played well last year. Had some nice games for us, including 15 points and the game-winner at St. Joe's. I thought he would take the next step offensively this year, where as I thought Garrett was no better then he was year 1.

I still want to see both Sampson and Pointer back here next year, without Sanchez to get in their way.
 
I thought that game last year, where Garrett was like 0-10 from the line, really destroyed him. He was never the same after that, IMO.

Pointer, OTOH, played well last year. Had some nice games for us, including 15 points and the game-winner at St. Joe's. I thought he would take the next step offensively this year, where as I thought Garrett was no better then he was year 1.

I still want to see both Sampson and Pointer back here next year, without Sanchez to get in their way.
Click to expand...

Good post. I also saw Garrett lose confidence, and that was clearly due to Lavin's love for Dom. He also hard a terrible role for us playing the four most of the time. Dom seems like a guy that feeds off of confidence and does well when he's the man and a huge part of things, but he really stiffens up in big spots and looks hesitant. I think he would have been much better off going to a school with veterans in place and taking on a small role to start. He has some horrible, horrible habits because he was asked to do too much the last two years.

I think Garrett is the kind of kid that would have exploded his late soph or start of his junior at a school like Butler. A school that spaces the floor properly, develops players, and allows guys to play to their strengths while avoiding weaknesses. Baseball makes it tough to predict, but I still think Garrett could have a nice end to his career. Maybe we can take him back as a 5th year transfer!
 
I would take Amir for a game tomorrow. But if I could only have one for the next two years following last year I would choose Dom. He played awful today however. No IQ
 
I've been hard on Dom but its Dom all day over Garrett. Not even close.
Click to expand...

Agree to disagree :)
How do you feel about it taking him an average of two games to get a single offensive rebound at 24+ mpg? I just don't understand it. It's obviously not a physical limitation or a lack of hustle.
 
I've been hard on Dom but its Dom all day over Garrett. Not even close.
Click to expand...

Agree to disagree :)
How do you feel about it taking him an average of two games to get a single offensive rebound at 24+ mpg? I just don't understand it. It's obviously not a physical limitation or a lack of hustle.
Click to expand...

You're smarter than this. Don't harp on one stat. You can be in perfect position to get a rebound but guess what? The ball bounces in the other direction. Harp on Dom about ill advised shots or acrobatic layups with no chance of going in. Or harp on him continuing to create 'mayhem' when he dribbles.
 
I've been hard on Dom but its Dom all day over Garrett. Not even close.
Click to expand...

Agree to disagree :)
How do you feel about it taking him an average of two games to get a single offensive rebound at 24+ mpg? I just don't understand it. It's obviously not a physical limitation or a lack of hustle.
Click to expand...

You're smarter than this. Don't harp on one stat. You can be in perfect position to get a rebound but guess what? The ball bounces in the other direction. Harp on Dom about ill advised shots or acrobatic layups with no chance of going in. Or harp on him continuing to create 'mayhem' when he dribbles.
Click to expand...

Yes, there are plenty of times a player gets great position and the ball bounces a different direction. It's not about a single possession or even ten or twenty, though. It's a per game average over 15 games (over 80 for his career), and I do not think it is luck. You make your own luck on the glass.

I think it has more to do with the fact that he thinks of himself as a point-forward and overestimates his contributions on the perimeter. He shouldn't be 15-20 feet or more from the basket for the majority of our shot attempts. We can't win with him doing that. When they assembled this class, I joked that it would be like a volleyball game on the offensive glass. It's hasn't been like that. It's usually one and out. Jordan is terrific for a guard, Harrison is solid, and Sampson is finally starting to realize he is needed there. Dom needs to get the message. He should be hitting the glass with reckless abandon every shot attempt.
 
We have a tendency here to go back in time when the future looks bleak. Amir is gone so rather than insult Pointer who is with us with a former player why not ask why today a player like Balamou who is very similar to Pointer never got off the bench? The only sane reason to activate Felix would have been to use him in place of Pointer when Dom was not being effective. Dom downright sucked this game so the Balamou mystery should be explored with the wizard and not players that are living the California dream like Amir.
 
I would take Amir for a game tomorrow. But if I could only have one for the next two years following last year I would choose Dom. He played awful today however. No IQ
Click to expand...
Mase, you right, he played poorly today and was at his worst when the game was on the line. I just don't get it. I had made Dom my favorite player. I was sure he was going to do all the dirty work. I figured his game would fit with whoever else he was on the court with. For a while he even got away with being out of control. He was playing good D and got a lot of run outs started. Now he's nothing but a liability. I will still be rooting for him to be the player I thought I would be. Will always respect Amir. He promised he would get eligible and report for action after 1 term, and he did.
 
I've been hard on Dom but its Dom all day over Garrett. Not even close.
Click to expand...

Agree to disagree :)
How do you feel about it taking him an average of two games to get a single offensive rebound at 24+ mpg? I just don't understand it. It's obviously not a physical limitation or a lack of hustle.
Click to expand...

You're smarter than this. Don't harp on one stat. You can be in perfect position to get a rebound but guess what? The ball bounces in the other direction. Harp on Dom about ill advised shots or acrobatic layups with no chance of going in. Or harp on him continuing to create 'mayhem' when he dribbles.
Click to expand...

Positioning is just about EVERYTHING for a great rebounder. You work your butt off as soon as a shot is launched get in front of your man, and box him. Over the long haul, if you do that, you get more than your share of rebounds - you don't rely on outjumping your opponent. Paul Silas made an entire career of this, and the whole discussion of most NBA rebounds happening below the rim was centered around his work ethic of getting position. More recently, watch video of just how animated Dennis Rodman was to fight for position, even to the offensive glass, and most of his points appeared to come on put backs. Rebounding is so much about hard work, and relatively few players expend all that effort. Throw in the fact that guys who rebound by putting a body on their man also draw a large number of over the top fouls.
 
I would take Amir for a game tomorrow. But if I could only have one for the next two years following last year I would choose Dom. He played awful today however. No IQ
Click to expand...
Mase, you right, he played poorly today and was at his worst when the game was on the line. I just don't get it. I had made Dom my favorite player. I was sure he was going to do all the dirty work. I figured his game would fit with whoever else he was on the court with. For a while he even got away with being out of control. He was playing good D and got a lot of run outs started. Now he's nothing but a liability. I will still be rooting for him to be the player I thought I would be. Will always respect Amir. He promised he would get eligible and report for action after 1 term, and he did.[/quote

He'll be back against the lesser teams we face the next four games, but the kid--along with others--needs a radical shakeup. They need to break down where he is on the floor for every shot attempt either on video or with photos. Our forwards live on the perimeter. As a team we are in an 11-way tied for 146th in the country for offensive rebounding. This is a team with Sampson, Jordan, Pointer, Obekpa, and Sanchez.
Click to expand...
 
Everything you need to know about Dom in one video:

"No. 2 Syracuse Edges St. John's"
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/_/id/2599/st.-john's-red-storm

At 15 seconds it shows Pointer starting the break with a good outlet after Jordan stripped Ennis on a drive. At 43 seconds it shows Pointer failing to move more than a single step to stop and incredibly long, slow Ennis drive that started with a ball screen all the way across the court. That gave Syracuse a 62-60 lead with 4:00 to go (on that play pay attention to how soft Sampson was to the Syracuse big instead delivering a shoulder and boxing him out--even if Ennis missed, the kid had an easy putback waiting for him). At 49 seconds into the video, with Syracuse leading 64-61 with 1:39 to play and SJU desperate for a stop, you see Dom getting completely lost on a baseline screen (as usual) resulting in about 8-10 feet of space for CJ fair to shoot an uncontested deep two from his favorite spot. Then at 55 seconds into the video, with under a minute to go in the game, you see Dom stumbling and bumbling out of control dumping it off to Sampson who proceeds to gets posterized by a Grant two-handed block. The play shows both Dom's awful handle and good vision at the same time. Personally, I don't have a problem with Dom handling in the open court. I would just rather it didn't happen in the last five minutes of a close game.

The most important play in understanding Dom occurs at the 29 second mark (actually pretty play all around) where Harrison receives a nice skip pass to the three point line from Jordan on the baseline inbound, head fakes a reckless closeout, drives to inside ten feet and banks a shot. You'll notice Dom Pointer 2-3 feet BEHIND the NBA three point line the entire time. He watched Harrison receive a long inbound pass, give a head fake, slowly get by his man, dribble ten feet, and he did not move a single foot to the gaping lane the defense left him to either get a thunderous dunk if Harrison found him or a putback on an uncontested offensive rebound if Harrison shot and missed. What did he do? He stood there 2-3 feet behind the three point line with his hands in the air like he is some kind of three-point specialist or a point guard looking to reset and run the show.

I know it's just one play, but I'd wager Dom is routinely 15-25 feet from the basket for the overwhelming majority of our shots. This can't be his role. He can't shoot, he can't handle, and he makes plenty of mental errors. Surely Harrison, Jordan, Greene, and Branch can do better on the perimeter while Dom does things more suitable to his skill set.
 
Everything you need to know about Dom in one video:

"No. 2 Syracuse Edges St. John's"
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/_/id/2599/st.-john's-red-storm

At 15 seconds it shows Pointer starting the break with a good outlet after Jordan stripped Ennis on a drive. At 43 seconds it shows Pointer failing to move more than a single step to stop and incredibly long, slow Ennis drive that started with a ball screen all the way across the court. That gave Syracuse a 62-60 lead with 4:00 to go (on that play pay attention to how soft Sampson was to the Syracuse big instead delivering a shoulder and boxing him out--even if Ennis missed, the kid had an easy putback waiting for him). At 49 seconds into the video, with Syracuse leading 64-61 with 1:39 to play and SJU desperate for a stop, you see Dom getting completely lost on a baseline screen (as usual) resulting in about 8-10 feet of space for CJ fair to shoot an uncontested deep two from his favorite spot. Then at 55 seconds into the video, with under a minute to go in the game, you see Dom stumbling and bumbling out of control dumping it off to Sampson who proceeds to gets posterized by a Grant two-handed block. The play shows both Dom's awful handle and good vision at the same time. Personally, I don't have a problem with Dom handling in the open court. I would just rather it didn't happen in the last five minutes of a close game.

The most important play in understanding Dom occurs at the 29 second mark (actually pretty play all around) where Harrison receives a nice skip pass to the three point line from Jordan on the baseline inbound, head fakes a reckless closeout, drives to inside ten feet and banks a shot. You'll notice Dom Pointer 2-3 feet BEHIND the NBA three point line the entire time. He watched Harrison receive a long inbound pass, give a head fake, slowly get by his man, dribble ten feet, and he did not move a single foot to the gaping lane the defense left him to either get a thunderous dunk if Harrison found him or a putback on an uncontested offensive rebound if Harrison shot and missed. What did he do? He stood there 2-3 feet behind the three point line with his hands in the air like he is some kind of three-point specialist or a point guard looking to reset and run the show.

I know it's just one play, but I'd wager Dom is routinely 15-25 feet from the basket for the overwhelming majority of our shots. This can't be his role. He can't shoot, he can't handle, and he makes plenty of mental errors. Surely Harrison, Jordan, Greene, and Branch can do better on the perimeter while Dom does things more suitable to his skill set.
Click to expand...

I know you caught yourself by saying it's just one play, and anecdotally you can make Michael Jordan look as bad by breaking down a handful of sequences. However, it's clear that Pointer is a limited player offensively, although with Garrett when he took the ball to the hole, where it would end up was anyone's guess. With a three guard offense, when Pointer is playing a forward, we need a tough, reliable interior player, especially a rebounder, and that just isn't Pointer. He really gets off the floor, so I think he has the ability to rebound, but at 6'5 200, is not a power forward, where Garrett at 6'6 and 211 had the slight height and bulk advantage. Pointer COULD be a good offensive player, and I think Garrett's overall skill set was less refined.

We could really use Garrett's 5.4 rebounds per game in his 20 minutes last season.
 
Dom's a great kid and a terrific player. best defensive player on team hands down. he has flaws in his game....ok...so, Dom is not the reason they are losing. ease up on sir dom.
 
I am pro Dom (and would take him over Garrett all the time)...I think he tries too hard to "make something happen" on D which leads to his penchant for unecessary reach-ins, getting beat off dribble by slower players etc...the bubble above his head seems to be filled with thoughts of going for the steal instead of locking his man down and allowing the steals to come his way...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top