Moral Victories

C

Class of 72

Active member
Although it may be very difficult to salvage this season and some fans are throwing in the towel , I am hoping our team continues to be as competitive as they have been against the top teams in the Big East as we were with Villanova and Seton Hall. Really there is no real terrible team in this conference and the basketball Gods have not been kind once again this season with the loss of Marcus LoVett. At this point we have to look for an upset or two and gauge whether any of the upcoming losses can be considered moral victories that can be a springboard to a better future. Dr. David Hoch assembled a very detailed list of how to evaluate moral victories. I share it with you so as not to be overly critical with our players in the games we may lose.



 
I'm not a big moral victory guy (but I am also not hyper-critical when we lose).

My biggest fear of being in the cellar with only a few BE wins is the impact on our current roster (does it make anyone we want to keep more inclined to leave), our incoming recruits (does it cause anyone to reconsider) and our future recruits. Losing tends to create (and has created) a poor impression of the program and unless and until you can show sustained movement forward and stability, threatens to become an immutable perception.
 
I'm not a big moral victory guy (but I am also not hyper-critical when we lose).

My biggest fear of being in the cellar with only a few BE wins is the impact on our current roster (does it make anyone we want to keep more inclined to leave), our incoming recruits (does it cause anyone to reconsider) and our future recruits. Losing tends to create (and has created) a poor impression of the program and unless and until you can show sustained movement forward and stability, threatens to become an immutable perception.
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That perception is there already. The staff has a real uphill battle. We have not been in the game for any 5 star or high level 4 star players. The 4 star players we tend to get are closer to 3 star and any recruiting staff in the Big East can get 3 star players right out of high school and not rely on transfers or malcontents from other programs.
From bad hiring decisions to rocky terminations the program is easy to recruit against. We can never recruit a player on the Kansas short list. Not because they are Kansas but because of Fred Quartlebaum and Norm Roberts. Behind closed doors in the coaching fraternity you can rest assured that nothing nice is said about St. John's by the likes of Mike Jarvis, Fran Fraschilla, Steve Lavin and a host of assistants that includes Barry "Slice" Rohrssen that have been to Union Turnpike.
 
The last two years were the time for this, but in year 3 I'm not a believer in moral victories.

Sure Lovett is out, but Vegas still had us at 3-3 at this point. I don't see any positives. We played the top teams close but also played like crap against the basement. You are what your record is.

All I care about at this point is retaining the roster and having a big year next year. LoVett and I'm sure a role player or two will leave, but anything more than that will be awful and likely the end for this staff.
 
Moral victories don't mean much to me. Unless you are talking about Daniel refusing to eat the king's food, which wasn't kosher, and as a result of his faith was enabled to walk through fire.

Our guys are walking through fire and getting fried.

The ability to close out games and make big plays when it counts is what separates NCAA tourney teams from 0-6 Big East teams. Playing teams even for 36 minutes, or coming from way behind to make a score look close don't count for much. It doesn't even say what it appears - that you are almost as good as your opponent. You're not - you lose - and they win. Winning and losing are miles apart.

Right now, we don't have a single winner on our team. We don't have one guy who carries the team on his back in crunch time, a guy who says get me the ball and I will find the bottom of the net. The guy who gets the big rebound, putback, steal, stop, blocked shot. Our guys play very small in big moments, and until they learn to win, will not even sniff the NBA without game tickets.

Their manhood has to be challenged. 37 points in a losing effort means nothing as opposed to 17 points in a win. Not singling anyone out, but he's the best candidate to say to guys "Hey, follow me. We're gonna celebrate tonight."
 
Couldn't agree more Beast on your point of miles between winning and losing. When it comes down to crunch time winners (most of the time the better team) come through and makes the plays to win the game
 
Moral victories don't mean much to me. Unless you are talking about Daniel refusing to eat the king's food, which wasn't kosher, and as a result of his faith was enabled to walk through fire.

Our guys are walking through fire and getting fried.

The ability to close out games and make big plays when it counts is what separates NCAA tourney teams from 0-6 Big East teams. Playing teams even for 36 minutes, or coming from way behind to make a score look close don't count for much. It doesn't even say what it appears - that you are almost as good as your opponent. You're not - you lose - and they win. Winning and losing are miles apart.



Their manhood has to be challenged. 37 points in a losing effort means nothing as opposed to 17 points in a win. Not singling anyone out, but he's the best candidate to say to guys "Hey, follow me. We're gonna celebrate tonight."
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I think you just singled someone out.
 
Moral victories don't mean much to me. Unless you are talking about Daniel refusing to eat the king's food, which wasn't kosher, and as a result of his faith was enabled to walk through fire.

Our guys are walking through fire and getting fried.

The ability to close out games and make big plays when it counts is what separates NCAA tourney teams from 0-6 Big East teams. Playing teams even for 36 minutes, or coming from way behind to make a score look close don't count for much. It doesn't even say what it appears - that you are almost as good as your opponent. You're not - you lose - and they win. Winning and losing are miles apart.



Their manhood has to be challenged. 37 points in a losing effort means nothing as opposed to 17 points in a win. Not singling anyone out, but he's the best candidate to say to guys "Hey, follow me. We're gonna celebrate tonight."
Click to expand...

I think you just singled someone out.
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Not singling him out as a guilty party, but someone has to step up and carry the team on their backs. A generation ago George Johnson did just that and in the best loss of our history, nearly led us to victory over one of the best college basketball teams ever assembled. Reggie Carter came up big in big moments. So did Malik Sealy, Jayson Williams, Ron Artest, and any number of players on our better teams. Dwight Hardy had an extended run where we landed in the top 15 on his back.

The distinguishing factor in this tailspin is that no one has stepped up in crunch time. The obvious person is Ponds, but it could as easily be Simon, or Owens. Heck it could be Ahmed. The Mets had a guy who struck out way too much for a leadoff hitter, but in the late innings of big games, Mookie Wilson wold be harder and harder to strike out (just like in the iconic game 6)

Winners step up. Phil Rizzuto's stats seem ordinary, but in the World Series, he played big. Same with Billy Martin. In the book "Joe DiMaggio, A Hero's life", it was described that DiMaggio felt it was his personal responsibility to deliver a World Championship each season, not just a World Series, or 1st place finish.

So big players step up in big situations. Some guys have the stomach for it. Jordan did, better than perhaps anyone. I don't think Ewing did, at least not the NBA Ewing. Larry Bird had it. So did Magic. Walt Frazier did also, Greatness in basketball is defined on how you finished games, not by a stat sheet.

Mullin should read this post to his players (uhh oh, I hear the footsteps of one of our curmudgeons chastising this comment). College basketball players who want to play at the next level MUST step it up here, or else they are just college kids playing basketball, nothing more.
 
Moral victories don't mean much to me. Unless you are talking about Daniel refusing to eat the king's food, which wasn't kosher, and as a result of his faith was enabled to walk through fire.

Our guys are walking through fire and getting fried.

The ability to close out games and make big plays when it counts is what separates NCAA tourney teams from 0-6 Big East teams. Playing teams even for 36 minutes, or coming from way behind to make a score look close don't count for much. It doesn't even say what it appears - that you are almost as good as your opponent. You're not - you lose - and they win. Winning and losing are miles apart.



Their manhood has to be challenged. 37 points in a losing effort means nothing as opposed to 17 points in a win. Not singling anyone out, but he's the best candidate to say to guys "Hey, follow me. We're gonna celebrate tonight."
Click to expand...

I think you just singled someone out.
Click to expand...

Not singling him out as a guilty party, but someone has to step up and carry the team on their backs. A generation ago George Johnson did just that and in the best loss of our history, nearly led us to victory over one of the best college basketball teams ever assembled. Reggie Carter came up big in big moments. So did Malik Sealy, Jayson Williams, Ron Artest, and any number of players on our better teams. Dwight Hardy had an extended run where we landed in the top 15 on his back.

The distinguishing factor in this tailspin is that no one has stepped up in crunch time. The obvious person is Ponds, but it could as easily be Simon, or Owens. Heck it could be Ahmed. The Mets had a guy who struck out way too much for a leadoff hitter, but in the late innings of big games, Mookie Wilson wold be harder and harder to strike out (just like in the iconic game 6)

Winners step up. Phil Rizzuto's stats seem ordinary, but in the World Series, he played big. Same with Billy Martin. In the book "Joe DiMaggio, A Hero's life", it was described that DiMaggio felt it was his personal responsibility to deliver a World Championship each season, not just a World Series, or 1st place finish.

So big players step up in big situations. Some guys have the stomach for it. Jordan did, better than perhaps anyone. I don't think Ewing did, at least not the NBA Ewing. Larry Bird had it. So did Magic. Walt Frazier did also, Greatness in basketball is defined on how you finished games, not by a stat sheet.

Mullin should read this post to his players (uhh oh, I hear the footsteps of one of our curmudgeons chastising this comment). College basketball players who want to play at the next level MUST step it up here, or else they are just college kids playing basketball, nothing more.
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My problem with Ponds this year, and a few others on the team, is that they try to step up too much. You win and lose as a team. The great ones make those around them better. Never thought much of Melo for that reason. You mention Larry Bird. One of the greatest college players of all time. He carried a team of unknowns to the national championship. And one reason they got there was because he found a wide open Carl Nicks who hit a buzzer beater in a late round of the tourney, Bird drew a crowd and trusted his teammate. As Looie said, about Mullin, "he makes those around him better". That's what separates the good from the great. I want more ball movement, more trusting your teammate, and less one on one ball. That's may change the close losses to wins.
 
"Trying to step up too much" and actually stepping up are two very different things. At crunch tie you prove you are the best player on the court. You don't force shots, drive into a crowd, fire up ill advised threes, make a sloppy pass. A few set plays wouldn't hurt instead of free lancing, and making a great pass or a great shot doesn't really matter. You may recall Jordan warning his teammates not to pass the ball to Bill Cartright in big moments. He said something like "Give him the ball, and you will never see it again from me." Superior players are supremely confident they can execute in big moments, and more often than not, they do. Until any of our guys do that, they are just good players who don't know how to win.
 
"Trying to step up too much" and actually stepping up are two very different things.

Agree. And the player(s) who excel in crunch time are not always the best player(s) on the team although it helps immeasurably when they are. Dennis Johnson of the old Celtics teams is a great example of a guy who wasn't the best player on any of his Celtic teams, but boy did he play his best when it mattered. Good news is no reason our guys can't grow into that role with a little more experience.
 
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