Lou and Lew

J

jerseyshorejohnny

Well-known member
Had the priviledge and good fortune of attending an ESPN New York lunch at The NYAC yesterday hosted by Michael Kay.

The featured speaker was Coach Carnesecca.

During the Q&A someone asked Coach how close St. John's was to landing Lew Alcindor, back in the day .

Coach Carnesecca said it was NEVER close.

Former Redmen great Sonny Dove and Lew/Kareem were great jazz enthusiasts and use to spend quite a bit of time together.

Sonny Dove told Coach Carnesecca that if he stayed on the East Coast, Coach had a great chance to convince him to go to St. John's but Dove said Lew/Kareem wanted to go to The West Coast all along.

Michael Kay told a funny story that he heard Bill Raftery once tell:

During the early days of the Big East, Raferty was asked:

What was he going to do since St. John's had signed Mullin, Georgeton had signed Patrick and Villanova had signed Eddie Pickney.

Without missing abeat Raferty said; I know what I'm going to do, I'm getting out of coaching !!

Last, but not least, Coach Carnesecca told a story about Chris Mullin.

Said that the day before Chris left for the final Olympic tryout he (Coach Carnesecca) realized on the way home from a dinner on Long Island that he did not get the chance to wish Chris good luck.

That said, he stopped by St. John's hoping that Chris would be in the gym. Sure enough, Mulllin was there with his brother.

Coach Carnesecca said this was a testament to his superior work ethic that he was working to get better even the night before the final Olympic tryout session.

Before I forget, Michael Kay also praised Coach Carnesecca on the way he was treated as a 24 year old reporter for The N.Y. Post covering The Redmen in 1985.

Kay said, Coach Carnesecca treated him like he was a veteran reporter and he will always be grateful to Coach.
 
Interesting take by Lou on Alcinder but maybe a little off. Lou became head coach in 1966 after the retirement of Coach Lapchick in 1965. That retirement ended with the big win in the NIT over Villanova coached by Jack Kraft. Alcinder has stated in his book and in person that he would have played at St. John's had Lapchick not retired.
Lapchick had wanted to stay at St. John's but had reached the mandatory retirement age. St. John's was unable, or not clever enough to realize a way around this. At the time it was also rumored that Louie was going to leave St. John's if he did not get the job as other schools began inquiring about Lou's availability. Certainly Lou is not going to endorse any statement that his hiring led to the loss of Alcinder, and St. John's did not want to lose Lou. St. John's had recruited Rudy Bogad of Molloy from the same class, who was a very good player but never in the league of Alcinder. St. John's and Madison Square Garden were very naive at the time underestimating the power that would come with securing Lew Alcinder as their student athlete. MSG and the Knicks had to understand the territorial pick in the NBA draft and could or should have had Alcinder on their radar for selection via a NY team like St. John's. These arrangements were done before. The territorial pick was eliminated in 1966, Lew's freshman year. Regardless, St. John's close association with MSG and the NIT could have led to St. John''s continuing with this tradition, winning the NIT during Alcinder's years, presumably with a similar 88 and 2 record and thereby tarnishing any so called NCAA champion's claim. Perhaps leading to a challenge game for charity which was done before, during the war. If not the press would not recognize the NCAA champion as a true champion if it did not meet and beat a St,. John's team led by Alcinder. This is all conjecture and food for thought on how it would have reshaped college basketball.
A monumental mistake no matter how you look at it.
 
Interesting take by Lou on Alcinder but maybe a little off. Lou became head coach in 1966 after the retirement of Coach Lapchick in 1965. That retirement ended with the big win in the NIT over Villanova coached by Jack Kraft. Alcinder has stated in his book and in person that he would have played at St. John's had Lapchick not retired.
Lapchick had wanted to stay at St. John's but had reached the mandatory retirement age. St. John's was unable, or not clever enough to realize a way around this. At the time it was also rumored that Louie was going to leave St. John's if he did not get the job as other schools began inquiring about Lou's availability. Certainly Lou is not going to endorse any statement that his hiring led to the loss of Alcinder, and St. John's did not want to lose Lou. St. John's had recruited Rudy Bogad of Molloy from the same class, who was a very good player but never in the league of Alcinder. St. John's and Madison Square Garden were very naive at the time underestimating the power that would come with securing Lew Alcinder as their student athlete. MSG and the Knicks had to understand the territorial pick in the NBA draft and could or should have had Alcinder on their radar for selection via a NY team like St. John's. These arrangements were done before. The territorial pick was eliminated in 1966, Lew's freshman year. Regardless, St. John's close association with MSG and the NIT could have led to St. John''s continuing with this tradition, winning the NIT during Alcinder's years, presumably with a similar 88 and 2 record and thereby tarnishing any so called NCAA champion's claim. Perhaps leading to a challenge game for charity which was done before, during the war. If not the press would not recognize the NCAA champion as a true champion if it did not meet and beat a St,. John's team led by Alcinder. This is all conjecture and food for thought on how it would have reshaped college basketball.
A monumental mistake no matter how you look at it.
Click to expand...


Wow, that mandatory retirement age may have cost us a historic run in college hoops.
 
Interesting take by Lou on Alcinder but maybe a little off. Lou became head coach in 1966 after the retirement of Coach Lapchick in 1965. That retirement ended with the big win in the NIT over Villanova coached by Jack Kraft. Alcinder has stated in his book and in person that he would have played at St. John's had Lapchick not retired.
Lapchick had wanted to stay at St. John's but had reached the mandatory retirement age. St. John's was unable, or not clever enough to realize a way around this. At the time it was also rumored that Louie was going to leave St. John's if he did not get the job as other schools began inquiring about Lou's availability. Certainly Lou is not going to endorse any statement that his hiring led to the loss of Alcinder, and St. John's did not want to lose Lou. St. John's had recruited Rudy Bogad of Molloy from the same class, who was a very good player but never in the league of Alcinder. St. John's and Madison Square Garden were very naive at the time underestimating the power that would come with securing Lew Alcinder as their student athlete. MSG and the Knicks had to understand the territorial pick in the NBA draft and could or should have had Alcinder on their radar for selection via a NY team like St. John's. These arrangements were done before. The territorial pick was eliminated in 1966, Lew's freshman year. Regardless, St. John's close association with MSG and the NIT could have led to St. John''s continuing with this tradition, winning the NIT during Alcinder's years, presumably with a similar 88 and 2 record and thereby tarnishing any so called NCAA champion's claim. Perhaps leading to a challenge game for charity which was done before, during the war. If not the press would not recognize the NCAA champion as a true champion if it did not meet and beat a St,. John's team led by Alcinder. This is all conjecture and food for thought on how it would have reshaped college basketball.
A monumental mistake no matter how you look at it.
Click to expand...

I think we may have had a better shot with Lapchick as coach, but do you really think we could have gotten Alcindor? I know the story goes that Lew's parents wanted him to go to St. John's, but it is all conjecture. Interesting note about Bogad. When I was 18 I worked in a supermarket in Glendale one summer, on night crew. There was a full time clerk who had just graduated college and was looking for a job in a tight market. We knew he had played college ball, but were pretty dismissive of his bball experience at Fairfield, although he did play at Molloy in HS, which carried a lot more weight with us. His name: Bob Bogad, Rudy's brother. We played some schoolyard ball with him, and he took it easy, although we actually thought we were better than him (wishful thinking and not close by a mile). I recently checked some Fiarfield history, and saw that Bob Bogad had a few games in the high 20s, not bad at all for D1. I'm guessing he was a 6'5 forward. He also teamed with an upperclassmen at Fairfield, George Groome, from Bellerose and Holy Cross HS, who I believe is Fairfield's all time leading scorer. Groome was a HS teammate of our own Billy Schaeffer, on a rare Holy Cross city Championship team.

Does anyone remember Rudy Bogad the player? I'd be interested to hear how good he was.
 
Interesting take by Lou on Alcinder but maybe a little off. Lou became head coach in 1966 after the retirement of Coach Lapchick in 1965. That retirement ended with the big win in the NIT over Villanova coached by Jack Kraft. Alcinder has stated in his book and in person that he would have played at St. John's had Lapchick not retired.
Lapchick had wanted to stay at St. John's but had reached the mandatory retirement age. St. John's was unable, or not clever enough to realize a way around this. At the time it was also rumored that Louie was going to leave St. John's if he did not get the job as other schools began inquiring about Lou's availability. Certainly Lou is not going to endorse any statement that his hiring led to the loss of Alcinder, and St. John's did not want to lose Lou. St. John's had recruited Rudy Bogad of Molloy from the same class, who was a very good player but never in the league of Alcinder. St. John's and Madison Square Garden were very naive at the time underestimating the power that would come with securing Lew Alcinder as their student athlete. MSG and the Knicks had to understand the territorial pick in the NBA draft and could or should have had Alcinder on their radar for selection via a NY team like St. John's. These arrangements were done before. The territorial pick was eliminated in 1966, Lew's freshman year. Regardless, St. John's close association with MSG and the NIT could have led to St. John''s continuing with this tradition, winning the NIT during Alcinder's years, presumably with a similar 88 and 2 record and thereby tarnishing any so called NCAA champion's claim. Perhaps leading to a challenge game for charity which was done before, during the war. If not the press would not recognize the NCAA champion as a true champion if it did not meet and beat a St,. John's team led by Alcinder. This is all conjecture and food for thought on how it would have reshaped college basketball.
A monumental mistake no matter how you look at it.
Click to expand...

Thanks, SD, but unless I'm misinterpreting it, you were off on a couple of things: Rudy Bogad and Lew Alcindor were not from the same class. Bogad graduated Molloy in 1964 (he was in a couple of my freshmen classes at St. John's), and Lew graduated, as you noted, in 1965. And it was then (following Lapchick's forced retirement at the end of the '64-'65 season), not 1966, that Louie took over as head coach (for the '65-'66) season. (Also, beginning with the '66-'67 season, if given the choice, St. John's began opting for the NCAA tournament over the NIT.)
 
I was invited to try out for a basketball scholarship at Power Memorial in 1960. Competed against Lew/Kareem....he wonhttp://redmen.com/1x/components/com_kunena/template/blue_eagle/images/emoticons/sob.png. I graduated St. Augustine's DHS in June 1964 so I'm pretty sure Lew graduated at the same time.
In those days, freshman were not allowed to play varsity basketball in college. Something is not calculating for me i.e., I'm losing a year. Maybe he was just at Power Memorial working out. I'm certain he was there.

Abdul-Jabbar was born Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor, Jr., on April 16, 1947, and grew up in Manhattan in New York City, the only child of Cora Lillian, a department store price checker, and Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor, Sr., a transit police officer and jazz musician.[1][2] At birth, he weighed 12 pounds, 10 ounces (5.73 kg), and was twenty-two-and-a-half inches (57.2 cm) long.[3] He was raised as a Roman Catholic and attended St. Jude School in the Inwood section of Manhattan. Later in life, he converted to Islam.[4] He initially joined the Nation of Islam in 1968, before retaking the Shahada and converting to Sunni Islam that same summer.[5]

From an early age he began his record-breaking basketball accomplishments. In high school, he led Power Memorial Academy to three straight New York City Catholic championships, a 71-game winning streak, and a 79–2 overall record.[6]
College
Lew Alcindor (Jabbar) with the reverse two hand dunk.

Lew Alcindor played four seasons for the UCLA Bruins; on the freshman team in 1965-66 and from 1966–69 under coach John Wooden, contributing to the team's three-year record of 88 wins and only two losses: one to the University of Houston in which Alcindor had a not fully healed eye injury (see below), and the other to crosstown rival USC who played a "stall game" (i.e., there was no shot clock in those days, so a team could hold the ball as long as it wanted before attempting to score).
 
I was invited to try out for a basketball scholarship at Power Memorial in 1960. Competed against Lew/Kareem....he wonhttp://redmen.com/1x/components/com_kunena/template/blue_eagle/images/emoticons/sob.png. I graduated St. Augustine's DHS in June 1964 so I'm pretty sure Lew graduated at the same time.
In those days, freshman were not allowed to play varsity basketball in college. Something is not calculating for me i.e., I'm losing a year. Maybe he was just at Power Memorial working out. I'm certain he was there.

Abdul-Jabbar was born Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor, Jr., on April 16, 1947, and grew up in Manhattan in New York City, the only child of Cora Lillian, a department store price checker, and Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor, Sr., a transit police officer and jazz musician.[1][2] At birth, he weighed 12 pounds, 10 ounces (5.73 kg), and was twenty-two-and-a-half inches (57.2 cm) long.[3] He was raised as a Roman Catholic and attended St. Jude School in the Inwood section of Manhattan. Later in life, he converted to Islam.[4] He initially joined the Nation of Islam in 1968, before retaking the Shahada and converting to Sunni Islam that same summer.[5]

From an early age he began his record-breaking basketball accomplishments. In high school, he led Power Memorial Academy to three straight New York City Catholic championships, a 71-game winning streak, and a 79–2 overall record.[6]
College
Lew Alcindor (Jabbar) with the reverse two hand dunk.

Lew Alcindor played four seasons for the UCLA Bruins; on the freshman team in 1965-66 and from 1966–69 under coach John Wooden, contributing to the team's three-year record of 88 wins and only two losses: one to the University of Houston in which Alcindor had a not fully healed eye injury (see below), and the other to crosstown rival USC who played a "stall game" (i.e., there was no shot clock in those days, so a team could hold the ball as long as it wanted before attempting to score).
Click to expand...

Your line "Lew Alcindor played four seasons for the UCLA Bruins; on the freshman team in 1965-66 and from 1966–69 under coach John Wooden" clearly shows that he graduated Power Memorial in 1965, about which I'm 100% certain. (For one thing, when I was a HS freshman, my school's [Mt. St. Michael's] freshmen team won the Catholic city championship, and we all had high hopes for winning future varsity titles. Then, the next year ['61-'62] Lew showed up at Power, led them to the freshmen title, and once he joined the varsity in '62-'63 -- he was soph, I was a junior -- we knew our hopes of a varsity title were crushed. Talk about dominant!) Lew's teammate Jack Bettridge did graduate in 1964, and the hope was that, in addition to being a major player, he might help lure Lew to St. John's. Bettridge, who about 6-3 or 6-4, was good but he never lived up to the coming-from-Power Memorial hype ... and as for Lew following him to St. John's, the rest is history.
 
I remember Alcindor and Power Memorial playing Rice H.S. at St. John's. Power pressed all over the court while Alcindor stood at his foul line ready to stuff any opposing player who was hoping to score. Not many did.
 
I was invited to try out for a basketball scholarship at Power Memorial in 1960. Competed against Lew/Kareem....he wonhttp://redmen.com/1x/components/com_kunena/template/blue_eagle/images/emoticons/sob.png. I graduated St. Augustine's DHS in June 1964 so I'm pretty sure Lew graduated at the same time.
In those days, freshman were not allowed to play varsity basketball in college. Something is not calculating for me i.e., I'm losing a year. Maybe he was just at Power Memorial working out. I'm certain he was there.

Abdul-Jabbar was born Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor, Jr., on April 16, 1947, and grew up in Manhattan in New York City, the only child of Cora Lillian, a department store price checker, and Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor, Sr., a transit police officer and jazz musician.[1][2] At birth, he weighed 12 pounds, 10 ounces (5.73 kg), and was twenty-two-and-a-half inches (57.2 cm) long.[3] He was raised as a Roman Catholic and attended St. Jude School in the Inwood section of Manhattan. Later in life, he converted to Islam.[4] He initially joined the Nation of Islam in 1968, before retaking the Shahada and converting to Sunni Islam that same summer.[5]

From an early age he began his record-breaking basketball accomplishments. In high school, he led Power Memorial Academy to three straight New York City Catholic championships, a 71-game winning streak, and a 79–2 overall record.[6]
College
Lew Alcindor (Jabbar) with the reverse two hand dunk.

Lew Alcindor played four seasons for the UCLA Bruins; on the freshman team in 1965-66 and from 1966–69 under coach John Wooden, contributing to the team's three-year record of 88 wins and only two losses: one to the University of Houston in which Alcindor had a not fully healed eye injury (see below), and the other to crosstown rival USC who played a "stall game" (i.e., there was no shot clock in those days, so a team could hold the ball as long as it wanted before attempting to score).
Click to expand...

Your line "Lew Alcindor played four seasons for the UCLA Bruins; on the freshman team in 1965-66 and from 1966–69 under coach John Wooden" clearly shows that he graduated Power Memorial in 1965, about which I'm 100% certain. (For one thing, when I was a HS freshman, my school's [Mt. St. Michael's] freshmen team won the Catholic city championship, and we all had high hopes for winning future varsity titles. Then, the next year ['61-'62] Lew showed up at Power, led them to the freshmen title, and once he joined the varsity in '62-'63 -- he was soph, I was a junior -- we knew our hopes of a varsity title were crushed. Talk about dominant!) Lew's teammate Jack Bettridge did graduate in 1964, and the hope was that, in addition to being a major player, he might help lure Lew to St. John's. Bettridge, who about 6-3 or 6-4, was good but he never lived up to the coming-from-Power Memorial hype ... and as for Lew following him to St. John's, the rest is history.
Click to expand...

Redken has the dates right. When Alcindor was a sophomore at Power Sonny Dove was a senior at St Francis Prep. They met up in the city championships and Sonny took him to school. From Alcindor's junior year at Power until he graduated UCLA he was the most dominant force in basketball (The UCLA freshman team beat the varsity in a pre-season pep-rally game when he was on the freshmen team).

As you would imagine, when he was freshman at UCLA the pre-season basketball magazines ran articles about him. The only pictures they had of him were in his Power uniform. Paul Houghton was the point guard on Power with Alcindor and was in the background of some of the pictures and he would brag about how he made the magazines.

Jack Betridge was another story -- very gritty -- a tough, in-your-face- City kid.

The story about Coach Lapchick retiring as being the reason that we didn't get Alcindor is the one that always seemed to be the most often stated over the years (and on this site). I guess we'll never really know.
 
I know someone who knows a friend of Snooki, who I just saw posing in a pic with Kareem. I can try to work those channels to get the real scoop.
 
if you want the real story...look up sam gilbert.

he lined alcindor's pocket as he did many others. teammate lucius allen admitted such.

one ncaa investigator said he found enough to put ucla on indefinite suspension.
 
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