How Big Time Sports Ate College Life / NY Times

Big time athletics are integral to the branding of a university, and attract students. It is no coindicence that Notre Dame, Georgetown, Boston College, Duke, UNC, and many others are all top flight universities AND invest heavily in sports teams.  The academic profile of Gtown students soared after the basketball program took off. Duke was essentially a small southern school till their sports programs took off. Villanova hit a trifecta in 2006, when their basketball team made the elite 8, the business school ranked in the top 25, and they went to the common app - their applications went from about 7,000 to over 22,000.

I'm not sure of the correlation, but looking at the makeup of the SJU student section, today it doesn't appear to reflect the makeup of the student population. If the basketball program takes off, will SJU reclaim many of the area students who have decided to go elsewhere?

The value of a winning major sports program goes far beyond the revenue it generates. It is the face ot he university, like it or not.
 
Big time athletics are integral to the branding of a university, and attract students. It is no coindicence that Notre Dame, Georgetown, Boston College, Duke, UNC, and many others are all top flight universities AND invest heavily in sports teams.  The academic profile of Gtown students soared after the basketball program took off. Duke was essentially a small southern school till their sports programs took off. Villanova hit a trifecta in 2006, when their basketball team made the elite 8, the business school ranked in the top 25, and they went to the common app - their applications went from about 7,000 to over 22,000.

I'm not sure of the correlation, but looking at the makeup of the SJU student section, today it doesn't appear to reflect the makeup of the student population. If the basketball program takes off, will SJU reclaim many of the area students who have decided to go elsewhere?

The value of a winning major sports program goes far beyond the revenue it generates. It is the face ot he university, like it or not.
Click to expand...
 

White students make up about 85% of the student section while they make up less than 50% of the entire student population. I don't know why the minority students don't go to games.
 
Big time athletics are integral to the branding of a university, and attract students. It is no coindicence that Notre Dame, Georgetown, Boston College, Duke, UNC, and many others are all top flight universities AND invest heavily in sports teams.  The academic profile of Gtown students soared after the basketball program took off. Duke was essentially a small southern school till their sports programs took off. Villanova hit a trifecta in 2006, when their basketball team made the elite 8, the business school ranked in the top 25, and they went to the common app - their applications went from about 7,000 to over 22,000.

I'm not sure of the correlation, but looking at the makeup of the SJU student section, today it doesn't appear to reflect the makeup of the student population. If the basketball program takes off, will SJU reclaim many of the area students who have decided to go elsewhere?

The value of a winning major sports program goes far beyond the revenue it generates. It is the face ot he university, like it or not.
Click to expand...
 

White students make up about 85% of the student section while they make up less than 50% of the entire student population. I don't know why the minority students don't go to games.
Click to expand...
 

Where did you get these figures from?

If they're valid it's a fascinating phenomenon and raises a couple of quesitons:

(1) Why not?

and

(2) Is this the case at other universities as well?

Any information or speculation about this?
 
Big time athletics are integral to the branding of a university, and attract students. It is no coindicence that Notre Dame, Georgetown, Boston College, Duke, UNC, and many others are all top flight universities AND invest heavily in sports teams.  The academic profile of Gtown students soared after the basketball program took off. Duke was essentially a small southern school till their sports programs took off. Villanova hit a trifecta in 2006, when their basketball team made the elite 8, the business school ranked in the top 25, and they went to the common app - their applications went from about 7,000 to over 22,000.

I'm not sure of the correlation, but looking at the makeup of the SJU student section, today it doesn't appear to reflect the makeup of the student population. If the basketball program takes off, will SJU reclaim many of the area students who have decided to go elsewhere?

The value of a winning major sports program goes far beyond the revenue it generates. It is the face ot he university, like it or not.
Click to expand...
 

White students make up about 85% of the student section while they make up less than 50% of the entire student population. I don't know why the minority students don't go to games.
Click to expand...
 

I would also add the student section appears to be 98% men.
 
Big time athletics are integral to the branding of a university, and attract students. It is no coindicence that Notre Dame, Georgetown, Boston College, Duke, UNC, and many others are all top flight universities AND invest heavily in sports teams.  The academic profile of Gtown students soared after the basketball program took off. Duke was essentially a small southern school till their sports programs took off. Villanova hit a trifecta in 2006, when their basketball team made the elite 8, the business school ranked in the top 25, and they went to the common app - their applications went from about 7,000 to over 22,000.

I'm not sure of the correlation, but looking at the makeup of the SJU student section, today it doesn't appear to reflect the makeup of the student population. If the basketball program takes off, will SJU reclaim many of the area students who have decided to go elsewhere?

The value of a winning major sports program goes far beyond the revenue it generates. It is the face ot he university, like it or not.
Click to expand...
 

Hello My Friend !

Just to have some fun and play Devil's Advocate:

1) You are certainly correct the so-called Flutie affect had a positive impact on BC. But when St. John's was at it's peak during the Mullin, Berrry, Jackson, Wennington etc. days, did St. John's really benefit the way, say, G'Town did ?

2) Duke is practically impossible to be admitted to in 2012, but it long shed it's image (the 1950's) of being a place for rich kids and those who could not get into an Ivy League School.

According to the new book, ACC Basketball by J. Samuel Walker (page 174) in 1965, the average SAT scores of its freshmen were in the 1,300 range.

3) Apps at St. John's went through the roof during Norm's tenure. Yes, I know about the free on-line app., etc.

4) Fordham has had a disaster of an athletic program, yet they are now (just about) a top 50 university according to U.S. News and World Report. Recently their Provost stated that their mission is to crack the top 25.

5) Yes, Nova has benefited from a more competitive pool of apps. However, St. John's would have a much higher academic profile if they had the same number of students as Nova.

6) A huge % of the St. John's student body come from homes where the annual AGI is less than $50K a year.

I think there are many factors that they don't go to games such as: their work schedule, lack of $$, no prior connection to St. John's and it's basketball program and the fact that we have been in a down cycle (2010-11 the exception) for the last 10 years when these students were growing up.

7) ND could go 6-6 in football for the next 10 yrs. with no impact on their admission standards.
 
Big time athletics are integral to the branding of a university, and attract students. It is no coindicence that Notre Dame, Georgetown, Boston College, Duke, UNC, and many others are all top flight universities AND invest heavily in sports teams.  The academic profile of Gtown students soared after the basketball program took off. Duke was essentially a small southern school till their sports programs took off. Villanova hit a trifecta in 2006, when their basketball team made the elite 8, the business school ranked in the top 25, and they went to the common app - their applications went from about 7,000 to over 22,000.

I'm not sure of the correlation, but looking at the makeup of the SJU student section, today it doesn't appear to reflect the makeup of the student population. If the basketball program takes off, will SJU reclaim many of the area students who have decided to go elsewhere?

The value of a winning major sports program goes far beyond the revenue it generates. It is the face ot he university, like it or not.
Click to expand...
 

Hello My Friend !

Just to have some fun and play Devil's Advocate:

1) You are certainly correct the so-called Flutie affect had a positive impact on BC. But when St. John's was at it's peak during the Mullin, Berrry, Jackson, Wennington etc. days, did St. John's really benefit the way, say, G'Town did ?


Too bad St. John's peak happened when there were no dorms on campus!
Being high profile means you draw from a national or regional pool of applicants. Some kid from LA or DC was much less likely to come to Queens and find a place to live off campus as a freshman (would you want your kid to do it).
Click to expand...
 
It's a good thing Fr. Harrington was willing to listen and was able to be convinced that on campus dorms was going to have a positive impact on the university.

Arguably, prior to him, St. John's was too much a "mom and pop" operation.  
 
Big time athletics are integral to the branding of a university, and attract students. It is no coindicence that Notre Dame, Georgetown, Boston College, Duke, UNC, and many others are all top flight universities AND invest heavily in sports teams.  The academic profile of Gtown students soared after the basketball program took off. Duke was essentially a small southern school till their sports programs took off. Villanova hit a trifecta in 2006, when their basketball team made the elite 8, the business school ranked in the top 25, and they went to the common app - their applications went from about 7,000 to over 22,000.

I'm not sure of the correlation, but looking at the makeup of the SJU student section, today it doesn't appear to reflect the makeup of the student population. If the basketball program takes off, will SJU reclaim many of the area students who have decided to go elsewhere?

The value of a winning major sports program goes far beyond the revenue it generates. It is the face ot he university, like it or not.
Click to expand...
 

White students make up about 85% of the student section while they make up less than 50% of the entire student population. I don't know why the minority students don't go to games.
Click to expand...
 

Where did you get these figures from?

If they're valid it's a fascinating phenomenon and raises a couple of quesitons:

(1) Why not?

and

(2) Is this the case at other universities as well?

Any information or speculation about this?
Click to expand...
 

I just got the 85% figure from being in the student section for the last 4 years. In general, it is almost exculsively white students in there and I always thought that was odd considering the racial make-up of the school. I honestly think it's a mixture of money reasons, cheering at games being more of a white person thing and college basketball being more of a sport that lends itself to the white fan while others may be drawn to the flashiness of the NBA. Also, growing up, white kids may not have been skilled enough to play basketball so they found rooting for it to be just as fun while minority students may have played more in high school and in playgrounds and dno't like to watch other people play.
 
 Love college basketball ... but colleges shouldn't be engaged in quasi professional sports. And I disagree that "Big Time" athletics is integral to the branding of a University... it's only integral if that's how the school wants to be identified. Can athletics be a tool towards academic growth? Sure. But it's only one of many. And by no means is it the only way or best way to improve a university.

And for every BC, Duke or UNC that needs Big Time sports to be successful there are just as many who have gone a different route: Dartmouth, Emory, Washington, Carnegie Mellon etc

Of the top 50 schools in the USA Today Rankings only about 18 have major sports programs.

I've said this on here before.... the US is the only country in the world that combines major sport with higher education. We take it for granted that Universities have sports programs and fan bases... it doesn't need to be that way. I'd suggest tomorrow that the NCAA disband major sports and allow the NBA to have development or minor league teams. If for no other reasons than the kids deserve an opportunity to make a living with their skills if they want to, and it would unquestionably result in better basketball.
 
Big time athletics are integral to the branding of a university, and attract students. It is no coindicence that Notre Dame, Georgetown, Boston College, Duke, UNC, and many others are all top flight universities AND invest heavily in sports teams.  The academic profile of Gtown students soared after the basketball program took off. Duke was essentially a small southern school till their sports programs took off. Villanova hit a trifecta in 2006, when their basketball team made the elite 8, the business school ranked in the top 25, and they went to the common app - their applications went from about 7,000 to over 22,000.

I'm not sure of the correlation, but looking at the makeup of the SJU student section, today it doesn't appear to reflect the makeup of the student population. If the basketball program takes off, will SJU reclaim many of the area students who have decided to go elsewhere?

The value of a winning major sports program goes far beyond the revenue it generates. It is the face ot he university, like it or not.
Click to expand...
 

Hello My Friend !

Just to have some fun and play Devil's Advocate:

1) You are certainly correct the so-called Flutie affect had a positive impact on BC. But when St. John's was at it's peak during the Mullin, Berrry, Jackson, Wennington etc. days, did St. John's really benefit the way, say, G'Town did ?

2) Duke is practically impossible to be admitted to in 2012, but it long shed it's image (the 1950's) of being a place for rich kids and those who could not get into an Ivy League School.

According to the new book, ACC Basketball by J. Samuel Walker (page 174) in 1965, the average SAT scores of its freshmen were in the 1,300 range.

3) Apps at St. John's went through the roof during Norm's tenure. Yes, I know about the free on-line app., etc.

4) Fordham has had a disaster of an athletic program, yet they are now (just about) a top 50 university according to U.S. News and World Report. Recently their Provost stated that their mission is to crack the top 25.

5) Yes, Nova has benefited from a more competitive pool of apps. However, St. John's would have a much higher academic profile if they had the same number of students as Nova.

6) A huge % of the St. John's student body come from homes where the annual AGI is less than $50K a year.

I think there are many factors that they don't go to games such as: their work schedule, lack of $$, no prior connection to St. John's and it's basketball program and the fact that we have been in a down cycle (2010-11 the exception) for the last 10 years when these students were growing up.

7) ND could go 6-6 in football for the next 10 yrs. with no impact on their admission standards.
Click to expand...
 

JSJ, I never mind you presenting an opposing position. You always post in the spirit of meaningful dialogue, and not to demean another poster. Let me respond:

1) St. John's did not get a positive bump in upgrading its academic profile from the Berry-Mullin-Wennington-Jackson era. I worked at SJU in that phase, and for SJU, it was always quantity over quality. No doubt though that SJU always benefitted from the acclaim the basketball team brought them in terms of student interest.

2) I think that Duke's role in attracting top students cannot be separated from its success on the hardwoods. Before Mike Krzyzewski arrived in 1980, Duke was a good basketball program. Four Final Fours, 10 regular-season conference championships and a national player of the year attest to as much. Remember Art Heyman?

3) SJU did go to a free app, and also awarded some sort of financial aid to about 95% of accepted students. Did you know that 40% of students at SJU are Pell eligible? Also 50% of current students are not Catholic. These are troubling statistics for a Catholic University of higher learning that has a rleigious mission.

4) Elite athletic aren't required to make a great renowned college or university. Fordham has always had a stronger academic reputation than SJU. Beyond the Ivy's Colby, Bates, Bowdoin, Williams, Amherst, Colgate, and a host of other elite academic schools do not need top flight athletics to brand their schools.

5) In terms of Nova, I do not think the top 7000 students at SJU compare well to the entire student population of Nova. There was a time in the 60s where Nova was not an upper eschelon acadmeic institution. The Augustinians are extremely bright, competent, and pastoral as a group. The era in which Father Edmund Dobbin led the school was extremely successful in upgrading the academic profile, and Father Peter Donohue is apparently as competent.

6) Agreed, which I pointed out earlier. Pell eligibility I think is family income below 40,000.

Basketball attendance by other ethnicities is a dififcult topic to dissect wihtout survey. For sure, many asian kdis are enrolled in very academically challenging programs like pharmacy and allied health. Many kids do work who commute, but at $99 for a season ticket, that's hard to pin on cost. Undoubtedly when the school returns to the top 10, there will be a flood of new rabid student fans. But why are they all white males right now? It's hard to say.

7) Notre Dame is a frnachise unto itself. While the program can falter to 6-6 for ten years, if they eliminated athletics, I am certain that applications would take a severe hit. Too many students (and their parents) think of attendance at an ND football game as nirvana.


Thanks for your thoughts.
 
Big time athletics are integral to the branding of a university, and attract students. It is no coindicence that Notre Dame, Georgetown, Boston College, Duke, UNC, and many others are all top flight universities AND invest heavily in sports teams.  The academic profile of Gtown students soared after the basketball program took off. Duke was essentially a small southern school till their sports programs took off. Villanova hit a trifecta in 2006, when their basketball team made the elite 8, the business school ranked in the top 25, and they went to the common app - their applications went from about 7,000 to over 22,000.

I'm not sure of the correlation, but looking at the makeup of the SJU student section, today it doesn't appear to reflect the makeup of the student population. If the basketball program takes off, will SJU reclaim many of the area students who have decided to go elsewhere?

The value of a winning major sports program goes far beyond the revenue it generates. It is the face ot he university, like it or not.
Click to expand...
 

Hello My Friend !

Just to have some fun and play Devil's Advocate:

1) You are certainly correct the so-called Flutie affect had a positive impact on BC. But when St. John's was at it's peak during the Mullin, Berrry, Jackson, Wennington etc. days, did St. John's really benefit the way, say, G'Town did ?

2) Duke is practically impossible to be admitted to in 2012, but it long shed it's image (the 1950's) of being a place for rich kids and those who could not get into an Ivy League School.

According to the new book, ACC Basketball by J. Samuel Walker (page 174) in 1965, the average SAT scores of its freshmen were in the 1,300 range.

3) Apps at St. John's went through the roof during Norm's tenure. Yes, I know about the free on-line app., etc.

4) Fordham has had a disaster of an athletic program, yet they are now (just about) a top 50 university according to U.S. News and World Report. Recently their Provost stated that their mission is to crack the top 25.

5) Yes, Nova has benefited from a more competitive pool of apps. However, St. John's would have a much higher academic profile if they had the same number of students as Nova.

6) A huge % of the St. John's student body come from homes where the annual AGI is less than $50K a year.

I think there are many factors that they don't go to games such as: their work schedule, lack of $$, no prior connection to St. John's and it's basketball program and the fact that we have been in a down cycle (2010-11 the exception) for the last 10 years when these students were growing up.

7) ND could go 6-6 in football for the next 10 yrs. with no impact on their admission standards.
Click to expand...
 

JSJ, I never mind you presenting an opposing position. You always post in the spirit of meaningful dialogue, and not to demean another poster. Let me respond:

1) St. John's did not get a positive bump in upgrading its academic profile from the Berry-Mullin-Wennington-Jackson era. I worked at SJU in that phase, and for SJU, it was always quantity over quality. No doubt though that SJU always benefitted from the acclaim the basketball team brought them in terms of student interest.

2) I think that Duke's role in attracting top students cannot be separated from its success on the hardwoods. Before Mike Krzyzewski arrived in 1980, Duke was a good basketball program. Four Final Fours, 10 regular-season conference championships and a national player of the year attest to as much. Remember Art Heyman?

3) SJU did go to a free app, and also awarded some sort of financial aid to about 95% of accepted students. Did you know that 40% of students at SJU are Pell eligible? Also 50% of current students are not Catholic. These are troubling statistics for a Catholic University of higher learning that has a rleigious mission.

4) Elite athletic aren't required to make a great renowned college or university. Fordham has always had a stronger academic reputation than SJU. Beyond the Ivy's Colby, Bates, Bowdoin, Williams, Amherst, Colgate, and a host of other elite academic schools do not need top flight athletics to brand their schools.

5) In terms of Nova, I do not think the top 7000 students at SJU compare well to the entire student population of Nova. There was a time in the 60s where Nova was not an upper eschelon acadmeic institution. The Augustinians are extremely bright, competent, and pastoral as a group. The era in which Father Edmund Dobbin led the school was extremely successful in upgrading the academic profile, and Father Peter Donohue is apparently as competent.

6) Agreed, which I pointed out earlier. Pell eligibility I think is family income below 40,000.

Basketball attendance by other ethnicities is a dififcult topic to dissect wihtout survey. For sure, many asian kdis are enrolled in very academically challenging programs like pharmacy and allied health. Many kids do work who commute, but at $99 for a season ticket, that's hard to pin on cost. Undoubtedly when the school returns to the top 10, there will be a flood of new rabid student fans. But why are they all white males right now? It's hard to say.

7) Notre Dame is a frnachise unto itself. While the program can falter to 6-6 for ten years, if they eliminated athletics, I am certain that applications would take a severe hit. Too many students (and their parents) think of attendance at an ND football game as nirvana.


Thanks for your thoughts.
Click to expand...
 

I do remember Art Heyman. I believe he has a "watering hole" on the East Side somewhere around 18th street. Great player. All-American. From Long Island. Played at Oceanside H.S., though not 100% certain.

Originally he signed a letter of intent with UNC but then after a visit to Chapel Hill where his step father and Frank McGuire had a furious argument (apparently Bill Heyman, Art's step-father, asked about UNC's academic requirements and implied that McGuire cared little about his players' performance in the classroom, which Frank took exception to) and as a result he decided to go to Duke. Letters of intent did not become binding until after July 1, 1959.

Your right about a football weekend at ND. Nothing like it.

Believe St. John's has a Muslim population of around 20%. One of the attractions is the no-alcohol policy on campus.

Nova is very popular with the so-called better students here on The Shore. So is Fordham.

Agree that winning basketball will drive the demand for tickets. I have an amazing grasp of the obvious. Would be a good topic for The TORCH to investigate in depth.
 
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