Homer Initiation

M

Marillac

Active member
I guess I have become the type of homer I did battle with every day during the Norm years. Am I happy with where we are now? No. Did I expect this class to be further along in year three when then the class was first assembled? Abso-freaking-lutely. So why am I not ready to run to the ledge?

- Lavin can recruit top prospects and recruiting is 80% of the battle. His first class lacked skill, but I bet he corrects that going forward.
-I expected to lose to Gtown and I knew beating Xavier at their place was unlikely.
-I really think we beat #11 Nova and start a mini-run to the tune of 14-5 or 13-6.
-I realize that Lavin put this junior class together under unheard of circumstances and in a remarkably short period of time for a guy that was out of recruiting for six or so years. He didn't have the luxury of getting the kids that had BOTH elite athleticism and skill. Those kids went to the likes of UK or Arizona. He tried to get Nick Johnson, he had Le'Bryan Nash scheduled for an official and he woo'ed Jahii Carson's mom to get him to Queens. He took the next tier of potential guys like Dom and co. Those are far from sure things. Boom or bust...Moe was a boom. Dom, so far, has been a relative bust. You have to realize many of these 2011 recruits were either committed or all but wrapped up before Lavin started recruiting.

-I think if he had to do it over again he would have made some changes to that philosophy and he has subsequently brought in guys with more skill the last two classes.

-I know many of you refuse to list excuses but having the Rise trio not qualify, losing Nuri so quickly, and then losing our most well-rounded player unexpectedly (at the time of his recruitment) really hurt. You can say that falls on the coach--and it does--but when you lose TEN guys in one season and you haven't recruited in like six years, you have to take chances to just field a team. Not having Sanchez qualify was a huge blow last year as well. I firmly believe that not having Sampson on time cost us Moe a year or maybe even two early, and gives us a player with a year less experience right now.

-That stupid zone we ran with Dunlap has doomed these kids. That kind of unique, complex defense can only be successful with a madman obsessing over every detail. When Dunlap left, that zone had no chance. Now the kids are learning yet another system and they are clearly at the point where they are thinking too much and not reacting or anticipating yet enough. This is their third coaching change in three years and they have to juggle that with learning to play with twice as many guys and with different roles.

-This team will live and die with defense. When they are on, they are menacing. Teams fumble the ball and create unforced turnovers in reaction the pressure being turned up...even after they have successfully taken the ball past the pressure and setting up their half court offense.

-My biggest problem with the staff this year is how they haven't embraced the defensive pressure this team was built to apply. I don't think they are comfortable with rolling it out for lengthy periods of time but I do see signs of it becoming a staple in the coming weeks.

-Guys are still learning their roles. Harrison and Jordan have not developed chemistry yet. When they do, it will be a different team. Sampson needs to embrace his role as a stretch-four and glass cleaner, and Sanchez needs to understand his value to this team is as a big man. He can't float on the perimeter for more then a few seconds at a time. Dom needs to stop handling the ball in the half court unless he is wide open.

-Other than the Gtown game, we haven't been blown out. That is saying something when we've played two undefeated teams in the top three in the country. Sometimes teams just have your #. Gtown is a tough matchup stylistically, they might be the only team in the league that has just as many top 100 caliber guys as us, and they know (and have the players to carry it out) that shutting down Harrison is a win at this point.

-I apologize for the long post, but this board has really taken a bad turn. If we aren't at least 13-6 entering the Butler game, I might be ready to join you. This team has a severe deficiency of well-rounded players--I get that. Physical talent is different than being a good basketball player, but they have guys that can excel in one or two areas that need to play to those strengths and avoid their glaring weaknesses. Butler has very productive guys that don't even consider outside shots or try to handle on the perimeter. They also didn't have to play 30 mpg as freshmen and score for their team to win.
 
I guess I have become the type of homer I did battle with every day during the Norm years. Am I happy with where we are now? No. Did I expect this class to be further along in year three when then the class was first assembled? Abso-freaking-lutely. So why am I not ready to run to the ledge?

- Lavin can recruit top prospects and recruiting is 80% of the battle. His first class lacked skill, but I bet he corrects that going forward.
-I expected to lose to Gtown and I knew beating Xavier at their place was unlikely.
-I really think we beat #11 Nova and start a mini-run to the tune of 14-5 or 13-6.
-I realize that Lavin put this junior class together under unheard of circumstances and in a remarkably short period of time for a guy that was out of recruiting for six or so years. He didn't have the luxury of getting the kids that had BOTH elite athleticism and skill. Those kids went to the likes of UK or Arizona. He tried to get Nick Johnson, he had Le'Bryan Nash scheduled for an official and he woo'ed Jahii Carson's mom to get him to Queens. He took the next tier of potential guys like Dom and co. Those are far from sure things. Boom or bust...Moe was a boom. Dom, so far, has been a relative bust. You have to realize many of these 2011 recruits were either committed or all but wrapped up before Lavin started recruiting.

-I think if he had to do it over again he would have made some changes to that philosophy and he has subsequently brought in guys with more skill the last two classes.

-I know many of you refuse to list excuses but having the Rise trio not qualify, losing Nuri so quickly, and then losing our most well-rounded player unexpectedly (at the time of his recruitment) really hurt. You can say that falls on the coach--and it does--but when you lose TEN guys in one season and you haven't recruited in like six years, you have to take chances to just field a team. Not having Sanchez qualify was a huge blow last year as well. I firmly believe that not having Sampson on time cost us Moe a year or maybe even two early, and gives us a player with a year less experience right now.

-That stupid zone we ran with Dunlap has doomed these kids. That kind of unique, complex defense can only be successful with a madman obsessing over every detail. When Dunlap left, that zone had no chance. Now the kids are learning yet another system and they are clearly at the point where they are thinking too much and not reacting or anticipating yet enough. This is their third coaching change in three years and they have to juggle that with learning to play with twice as many guys and with different roles.

-This team will live and die with defense. When they are on, they are menacing. Teams fumble the ball and create unforced turnovers in reaction the pressure being turned up...even after they have successfully taken the ball past the pressure and setting up their half court offense.

-My biggest problem with the staff this year is how they haven't embraced the defensive pressure this team was built to apply. I don't think they are comfortable with rolling it out for lengthy periods of time but I do see signs of it becoming a staple in the coming weeks.

-Guys are still learning their roles. Harrison and Jordan have not developed chemistry yet. When they do, it will be a different team. Sampson needs to embrace his role as a stretch-four and glass cleaner, and Sanchez needs to understand his value to this team is as a big man. He can't float on the perimeter for more then a few seconds at a time. Dom needs to stop handling the ball in the half court unless he is wide open.

-Other than the Gtown game, we haven't been blown out. That is saying something when we've played two undefeated teams in the top three in the country. Sometimes teams just have your #. Gtown is a tough matchup stylistically, they might be the only team in the league that has just as many top 100 caliber guys as us, and they know (and have the players to carry it out) that shutting down Harrison is a win at this point.

-I apologize for the long post, but this board has really taken a bad turn. If we aren't at least 13-6 entering the Butler game, I might be ready to join you. This team has a severe deficiency of well-rounded players--I get that. Physical talent is different than being a good basketball player, but they have guys that can excel in one or two areas that need to play to those strengths and avoid their glaring weaknesses. Butler has very productive guys that don't even consider outside shots or try to handle on the perimeter. They also didn't have to play 30 mpg as freshmen and score for their team to win.
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I Strongly disagree with one of your first points, That recruiting is 80% of the battle, that's just not true. If anything it's about 60% of the battle! bottom line is you still have to coach. With our team, if Shaka smart was the head coach, we'd be a top tier big east team, and probably wouldn't be 0-2 in the big east. This is a team full of players who aren't being utilized correctly, and obviously that falls on the coach.
 
I guess I have become the type of homer I did battle with every day during the Norm years. Am I happy with where we are now? No. Did I expect this class to be further along in year three when then the class was first assembled? Abso-freaking-lutely. So why am I not ready to run to the ledge?

- Lavin can recruit top prospects and recruiting is 80% of the battle. His first class lacked skill, but I bet he corrects that going forward.
-I expected to lose to Gtown and I knew beating Xavier at their place was unlikely.
-I really think we beat #11 Nova and start a mini-run to the tune of 14-5 or 13-6.
-I realize that Lavin put this junior class together under unheard of circumstances and in a remarkably short period of time for a guy that was out of recruiting for six or so years. He didn't have the luxury of getting the kids that had BOTH elite athleticism and skill. Those kids went to the likes of UK or Arizona. He tried to get Nick Johnson, he had Le'Bryan Nash scheduled for an official and he woo'ed Jahii Carson's mom to get him to Queens. He took the next tier of potential guys like Dom and co. Those are far from sure things. Boom or bust...Moe was a boom. Dom, so far, has been a relative bust. You have to realize many of these 2011 recruits were either committed or all but wrapped up before Lavin started recruiting.

-I think if he had to do it over again he would have made some changes to that philosophy and he has subsequently brought in guys with more skill the last two classes.

-I know many of you refuse to list excuses but having the Rise trio not qualify, losing Nuri so quickly, and then losing our most well-rounded player unexpectedly (at the time of his recruitment) really hurt. You can say that falls on the coach--and it does--but when you lose TEN guys in one season and you haven't recruited in like six years, you have to take chances to just field a team. Not having Sanchez qualify was a huge blow last year as well. I firmly believe that not having Sampson on time cost us Moe a year or maybe even two early, and gives us a player with a year less experience right now.

-That stupid zone we ran with Dunlap has doomed these kids. That kind of unique, complex defense can only be successful with a madman obsessing over every detail. When Dunlap left, that zone had no chance. Now the kids are learning yet another system and they are clearly at the point where they are thinking too much and not reacting or anticipating yet enough. This is their third coaching change in three years and they have to juggle that with learning to play with twice as many guys and with different roles.

-This team will live and die with defense. When they are on, they are menacing. Teams fumble the ball and create unforced turnovers in reaction the pressure being turned up...even after they have successfully taken the ball past the pressure and setting up their half court offense.

-My biggest problem with the staff this year is how they haven't embraced the defensive pressure this team was built to apply. I don't think they are comfortable with rolling it out for lengthy periods of time but I do see signs of it becoming a staple in the coming weeks.

-Guys are still learning their roles. Harrison and Jordan have not developed chemistry yet. When they do, it will be a different team. Sampson needs to embrace his role as a stretch-four and glass cleaner, and Sanchez needs to understand his value to this team is as a big man. He can't float on the perimeter for more then a few seconds at a time. Dom needs to stop handling the ball in the half court unless he is wide open.

-Other than the Gtown game, we haven't been blown out. That is saying something when we've played two undefeated teams in the top three in the country. Sometimes teams just have your #. Gtown is a tough matchup stylistically, they might be the only team in the league that has just as many top 100 caliber guys as us, and they know (and have the players to carry it out) that shutting down Harrison is a win at this point.

-I apologize for the long post, but this board has really taken a bad turn. If we aren't at least 13-6 entering the Butler game, I might be ready to join you. This team has a severe deficiency of well-rounded players--I get that. Physical talent is different than being a good basketball player, but they have guys that can excel in one or two areas that need to play to those strengths and avoid their glaring weaknesses. Butler has very productive guys that don't even consider outside shots or try to handle on the perimeter. They also didn't have to play 30 mpg as freshmen and score for their team to win.
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Marillac - I enjoy reading your posts and appreciate your knowledge and insight
But, I must disagree with some of your points
We didn't just lose to Georgetown, we were thoroughly embarrassed and taken to the woodshed
Lavin has been an excellent recruiter - Most of our core players were 4 star kids coming out of high school
He seems to be a great guy who is gregarious, excellent with the media and a wonderful "face" for our program
But, looking at the technical end of his job, Lavin has a lot of warts
One major problem is that there is no evidence of player development
I can't name one player who is appreciably better today that he was when he entered St John's
Another major problem is that our kids are incapable of running a coherent half court offense
To add insult to injury, this team has yet to find a defensive identity
In a nutshell, our team does not show evidence of being well coached
We got the same Lavin that UCLA had many years ago
 
Well done Marillac, I think you are right on with many of your points particularly the recruiting challenges that Lavin inherited! To fill 12 scholarships his first year was a daunting if not an impossible task!
 
Nice job on the glass half-full side, Marillac. Can't disagree with much of what you said.

However on the glass half-empty side, your post rests entirely on the assumption that the holes are going to get repaired and that the team is going to improve under present leadership. Some have questioned from the beginning whether Coach Lavin has the ability to do anything well other than recruit and do PR. Many question that now. If they're right, then all of the deficiencies you've identified are still going to be there weeks from now.

I do happen to agree with you that we will show up and be competitive against Nova. That is exactly the Lavin track record. If we don't then it may be a sign that he has lost the team (if the Georgetown game wasn't one).
 
"If we aren't at least 13-6 entering the Butler game, I might be ready to join you".

We will hold you to the above.
 
Lavin can recruit top prospects and recruiting is 80% of the battle. His first class lacked skill, but....
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Thanks, Marillac. I respect you for being a die hard Johnnie.

I do also disagree with the 80% comment. I believe a solid technical coach has this group much, much further along.
 
Lot's of reasons and challenges that impact the programs success, and being the head coach at St. John's whose program has been irrelevant for such a long time is quite challenging. Nothing matters, however, than the present. The team is at a cross roads - where will it head?
 
I guess I have become the type of homer I did battle with every day during the Norm years. Am I happy with where we are now? No. Did I expect this class to be further along in year three when then the class was first assembled? Abso-freaking-lutely. So why am I not ready to run to the ledge?

- Lavin can recruit top prospects and recruiting is 80% of the battle. His first class lacked skill, but I bet he corrects that going forward.
-I expected to lose to Gtown and I knew beating Xavier at their place was unlikely.
-I really think we beat #11 Nova and start a mini-run to the tune of 14-5 or 13-6.
-I realize that Lavin put this junior class together under unheard of circumstances and in a remarkably short period of time for a guy that was out of recruiting for six or so years. He didn't have the luxury of getting the kids that had BOTH elite athleticism and skill. Those kids went to the likes of UK or Arizona. He tried to get Nick Johnson, he had Le'Bryan Nash scheduled for an official and he woo'ed Jahii Carson's mom to get him to Queens. He took the next tier of potential guys like Dom and co. Those are far from sure things. Boom or bust...Moe was a boom. Dom, so far, has been a relative bust. You have to realize many of these 2011 recruits were either committed or all but wrapped up before Lavin started recruiting.

-I think if he had to do it over again he would have made some changes to that philosophy and he has subsequently brought in guys with more skill the last two classes.

-I know many of you refuse to list excuses but having the Rise trio not qualify, losing Nuri so quickly, and then losing our most well-rounded player unexpectedly (at the time of his recruitment) really hurt. You can say that falls on the coach--and it does--but when you lose TEN guys in one season and you haven't recruited in like six years, you have to take chances to just field a team. Not having Sanchez qualify was a huge blow last year as well. I firmly believe that not having Sampson on time cost us Moe a year or maybe even two early, and gives us a player with a year less experience right now.

-That stupid zone we ran with Dunlap has doomed these kids. That kind of unique, complex defense can only be successful with a madman obsessing over every detail. When Dunlap left, that zone had no chance. Now the kids are learning yet another system and they are clearly at the point where they are thinking too much and not reacting or anticipating yet enough. This is their third coaching change in three years and they have to juggle that with learning to play with twice as many guys and with different roles.

-This team will live and die with defense. When they are on, they are menacing. Teams fumble the ball and create unforced turnovers in reaction the pressure being turned up...even after they have successfully taken the ball past the pressure and setting up their half court offense.

-My biggest problem with the staff this year is how they haven't embraced the defensive pressure this team was built to apply. I don't think they are comfortable with rolling it out for lengthy periods of time but I do see signs of it becoming a staple in the coming weeks.

-Guys are still learning their roles. Harrison and Jordan have not developed chemistry yet. When they do, it will be a different team. Sampson needs to embrace his role as a stretch-four and glass cleaner, and Sanchez needs to understand his value to this team is as a big man. He can't float on the perimeter for more then a few seconds at a time. Dom needs to stop handling the ball in the half court unless he is wide open.

-Other than the Gtown game, we haven't been blown out. That is saying something when we've played two undefeated teams in the top three in the country. Sometimes teams just have your #. Gtown is a tough matchup stylistically, they might be the only team in the league that has just as many top 100 caliber guys as us, and they know (and have the players to carry it out) that shutting down Harrison is a win at this point.

-I apologize for the long post, but this board has really taken a bad turn. If we aren't at least 13-6 entering the Butler game, I might be ready to join you. This team has a severe deficiency of well-rounded players--I get that. Physical talent is different than being a good basketball player, but they have guys that can excel in one or two areas that need to play to those strengths and avoid their glaring weaknesses. Butler has very productive guys that don't even consider outside shots or try to handle on the perimeter. They also didn't have to play 30 mpg as freshmen and score for their team to win.
Click to expand...

Marillac - I enjoy reading your posts and appreciate your knowledge and insight
But, I must disagree with some of your points
We didn't just lose to Georgetown, we were thoroughly embarrassed and taken to the woodshed
Lavin has been an excellent recruiter - Most of our core players were 4 star kids coming out of high school
He seems to be a great guy who is gregarious, excellent with the media and a wonderful "face" for our program
But, looking at the technical end of his job, Lavin has a lot of warts
One major problem is that there is no evidence of player development
I can't name one player who is appreciably better today that he was when he entered St John's
Another major problem is that our kids are incapable of running a coherent half court offense
To add insult to injury, this team has yet to find a defensive identity
In a nutshell, our team does not show evidence of being well coached
We got the same Lavin that UCLA had many years ago
Click to expand...

In 2010-2011 we were 11-8 at the end of January. We lost at Gtown by TWENTY-FIVE. We were also destroyed by Louisville by almost 30 and lost to Fordham, St. Bonaventure, and St. Mary's.

Then something happened. The seniors got it. They mastered the defense and they found their roles. Why is it so hard to believe it can happen again? This team is much younger with more upside. Our best player is a frosh, we start a soph and a 1st year d-1 player, and our top big off the bench is a soph. After Saturday we will have 3/6 of our hardest conference games behind us and six games against SH, DePaul, and Providence ahead. We haven't even played a conference home game yet. Too early for all of this. Just.Way.Too.Early.
 
To add, we are currently tied for #13 in the country for strength of schedule with at least five teams certain to fall behind us after the Villanova game.

All is not lost.
 
I guess I have become the type of homer I did battle with every day during the Norm years. Am I happy with where we are now? No. Did I expect this class to be further along in year three when then the class was first assembled? Abso-freaking-lutely. So why am I not ready to run to the ledge?

- Lavin can recruit top prospects and recruiting is 80% of the battle. His first class lacked skill, but I bet he corrects that going forward.
-I expected to lose to Gtown and I knew beating Xavier at their place was unlikely.
-I really think we beat #11 Nova and start a mini-run to the tune of 14-5 or 13-6.
-I realize that Lavin put this junior class together under unheard of circumstances and in a remarkably short period of time for a guy that was out of recruiting for six or so years. He didn't have the luxury of getting the kids that had BOTH elite athleticism and skill. Those kids went to the likes of UK or Arizona. He tried to get Nick Johnson, he had Le'Bryan Nash scheduled for an official and he woo'ed Jahii Carson's mom to get him to Queens. He took the next tier of potential guys like Dom and co. Those are far from sure things. Boom or bust...Moe was a boom. Dom, so far, has been a relative bust. You have to realize many of these 2011 recruits were either committed or all but wrapped up before Lavin started recruiting.

-I think if he had to do it over again he would have made some changes to that philosophy and he has subsequently brought in guys with more skill the last two classes.

-I know many of you refuse to list excuses but having the Rise trio not qualify, losing Nuri so quickly, and then losing our most well-rounded player unexpectedly (at the time of his recruitment) really hurt. You can say that falls on the coach--and it does--but when you lose TEN guys in one season and you haven't recruited in like six years, you have to take chances to just field a team. Not having Sanchez qualify was a huge blow last year as well. I firmly believe that not having Sampson on time cost us Moe a year or maybe even two early, and gives us a player with a year less experience right now.

-That stupid zone we ran with Dunlap has doomed these kids. That kind of unique, complex defense can only be successful with a madman obsessing over every detail. When Dunlap left, that zone had no chance. Now the kids are learning yet another system and they are clearly at the point where they are thinking too much and not reacting or anticipating yet enough. This is their third coaching change in three years and they have to juggle that with learning to play with twice as many guys and with different roles.

-This team will live and die with defense. When they are on, they are menacing. Teams fumble the ball and create unforced turnovers in reaction the pressure being turned up...even after they have successfully taken the ball past the pressure and setting up their half court offense.

-My biggest problem with the staff this year is how they haven't embraced the defensive pressure this team was built to apply. I don't think they are comfortable with rolling it out for lengthy periods of time but I do see signs of it becoming a staple in the coming weeks.

-Guys are still learning their roles. Harrison and Jordan have not developed chemistry yet. When they do, it will be a different team. Sampson needs to embrace his role as a stretch-four and glass cleaner, and Sanchez needs to understand his value to this team is as a big man. He can't float on the perimeter for more then a few seconds at a time. Dom needs to stop handling the ball in the half court unless he is wide open.

-Other than the Gtown game, we haven't been blown out. That is saying something when we've played two undefeated teams in the top three in the country. Sometimes teams just have your #. Gtown is a tough matchup stylistically, they might be the only team in the league that has just as many top 100 caliber guys as us, and they know (and have the players to carry it out) that shutting down Harrison is a win at this point.

-I apologize for the long post, but this board has really taken a bad turn. If we aren't at least 13-6 entering the Butler game, I might be ready to join you. This team has a severe deficiency of well-rounded players--I get that. Physical talent is different than being a good basketball player, but they have guys that can excel in one or two areas that need to play to those strengths and avoid their glaring weaknesses. Butler has very productive guys that don't even consider outside shots or try to handle on the perimeter. They also didn't have to play 30 mpg as freshmen and score for their team to win.
Click to expand...

Marillac - I enjoy reading your posts and appreciate your knowledge and insight
But, I must disagree with some of your points
We didn't just lose to Georgetown, we were thoroughly embarrassed and taken to the woodshed
Lavin has been an excellent recruiter - Most of our core players were 4 star kids coming out of high school
He seems to be a great guy who is gregarious, excellent with the media and a wonderful "face" for our program
But, looking at the technical end of his job, Lavin has a lot of warts
One major problem is that there is no evidence of player development
I can't name one player who is appreciably better today that he was when he entered St John's
Another major problem is that our kids are incapable of running a coherent half court offense
To add insult to injury, this team has yet to find a defensive identity
In a nutshell, our team does not show evidence of being well coached
We got the same Lavin that UCLA had many years ago
Click to expand...

In 2010-2011 we were 11-8 at the end of January. We lost at Gtown by TWENTY-FIVE. We were also destroyed by Louisville by almost 30 and lost to Fordham, St. Bonaventure, and St. Mary's.

Then something happened. The seniors got it. They mastered the defense and they found their roles. Why is it so hard to believe it can happen again? This team is much younger with more upside. Our best player is a frosh, we start a soph and a 1st year d-1 player, and our top big off the bench is a soph. After Saturday we will have 3/6 of our hardest conference games behind us and six games against SH, DePaul, and Providence ahead. We haven't even played a conference home game yet. Too early for all of this. Just.Way.Too.Early.
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Ironically none were his players.
 
Like I said in my thread "Moving Forward", until someone on this team steps up and becomes a consistent perimeter threat, we are going to be an offensively challenged team on most nights, in the half court game. Yes, we will have the occasional "clicking on all cylinders" game, like Fordham, but what you've seen this season is ugly half court offense because we can't shoot, period. Harrison will have his moments, but he isn't a Dwight Hardy type who can carry a team, at least not yet. There is no magic formula to make bad shooters into good ones, if there was, we would have used it by now. We're going to have to win with defense, transition offense and hope. The hope being that one of our guys can make outside shots.
 
I guess I have become the type of homer I did battle with every day during the Norm years. Am I happy with where we are now? No. Did I expect this class to be further along in year three when then the class was first assembled? Abso-freaking-lutely. So why am I not ready to run to the ledge?

- Lavin can recruit top prospects and recruiting is 80% of the battle. His first class lacked skill, but I bet he corrects that going forward.
-I expected to lose to Gtown and I knew beating Xavier at their place was unlikely.
-I really think we beat #11 Nova and start a mini-run to the tune of 14-5 or 13-6.
-I realize that Lavin put this junior class together under unheard of circumstances and in a remarkably short period of time for a guy that was out of recruiting for six or so years. He didn't have the luxury of getting the kids that had BOTH elite athleticism and skill. Those kids went to the likes of UK or Arizona. He tried to get Nick Johnson, he had Le'Bryan Nash scheduled for an official and he woo'ed Jahii Carson's mom to get him to Queens. He took the next tier of potential guys like Dom and co. Those are far from sure things. Boom or bust...Moe was a boom. Dom, so far, has been a relative bust. You have to realize many of these 2011 recruits were either committed or all but wrapped up before Lavin started recruiting.

-I think if he had to do it over again he would have made some changes to that philosophy and he has subsequently brought in guys with more skill the last two classes.

-I know many of you refuse to list excuses but having the Rise trio not qualify, losing Nuri so quickly, and then losing our most well-rounded player unexpectedly (at the time of his recruitment) really hurt. You can say that falls on the coach--and it does--but when you lose TEN guys in one season and you haven't recruited in like six years, you have to take chances to just field a team. Not having Sanchez qualify was a huge blow last year as well. I firmly believe that not having Sampson on time cost us Moe a year or maybe even two early, and gives us a player with a year less experience right now.

-That stupid zone we ran with Dunlap has doomed these kids. That kind of unique, complex defense can only be successful with a madman obsessing over every detail. When Dunlap left, that zone had no chance. Now the kids are learning yet another system and they are clearly at the point where they are thinking too much and not reacting or anticipating yet enough. This is their third coaching change in three years and they have to juggle that with learning to play with twice as many guys and with different roles.

-This team will live and die with defense. When they are on, they are menacing. Teams fumble the ball and create unforced turnovers in reaction the pressure being turned up...even after they have successfully taken the ball past the pressure and setting up their half court offense.

-My biggest problem with the staff this year is how they haven't embraced the defensive pressure this team was built to apply. I don't think they are comfortable with rolling it out for lengthy periods of time but I do see signs of it becoming a staple in the coming weeks.

-Guys are still learning their roles. Harrison and Jordan have not developed chemistry yet. When they do, it will be a different team. Sampson needs to embrace his role as a stretch-four and glass cleaner, and Sanchez needs to understand his value to this team is as a big man. He can't float on the perimeter for more then a few seconds at a time. Dom needs to stop handling the ball in the half court unless he is wide open.

-Other than the Gtown game, we haven't been blown out. That is saying something when we've played two undefeated teams in the top three in the country. Sometimes teams just have your #. Gtown is a tough matchup stylistically, they might be the only team in the league that has just as many top 100 caliber guys as us, and they know (and have the players to carry it out) that shutting down Harrison is a win at this point.

-I apologize for the long post, but this board has really taken a bad turn. If we aren't at least 13-6 entering the Butler game, I might be ready to join you. This team has a severe deficiency of well-rounded players--I get that. Physical talent is different than being a good basketball player, but they have guys that can excel in one or two areas that need to play to those strengths and avoid their glaring weaknesses. Butler has very productive guys that don't even consider outside shots or try to handle on the perimeter. They also didn't have to play 30 mpg as freshmen and score for their team to win.
Click to expand...

Marillac - I enjoy reading your posts and appreciate your knowledge and insight
But, I must disagree with some of your points
We didn't just lose to Georgetown, we were thoroughly embarrassed and taken to the woodshed
Lavin has been an excellent recruiter - Most of our core players were 4 star kids coming out of high school
He seems to be a great guy who is gregarious, excellent with the media and a wonderful "face" for our program
But, looking at the technical end of his job, Lavin has a lot of warts
One major problem is that there is no evidence of player development
I can't name one player who is appreciably better today that he was when he entered St John's
Another major problem is that our kids are incapable of running a coherent half court offense
To add insult to injury, this team has yet to find a defensive identity
In a nutshell, our team does not show evidence of being well coached
We got the same Lavin that UCLA had many years ago
Click to expand...

In 2010-2011 we were 11-8 at the end of January. We lost at Gtown by TWENTY-FIVE. We were also destroyed by Louisville by almost 30 and lost to Fordham, St. Bonaventure, and St. Mary's.

Then something happened. The seniors got it. They mastered the defense and they found their roles. Why is it so hard to believe it can happen again? This team is much younger with more upside. Our best player is a frosh, we start a soph and a 1st year d-1 player, and our top big off the bench is a soph. After Saturday we will have 3/6 of our hardest conference games behind us and six games against SH, DePaul, and Providence ahead. We haven't even played a conference home game yet. Too early for all of this. Just.Way.Too.Early.
Click to expand...

I appreciate the optimism, and certainly agree it is not hard to believe it can happen again based upon our record and where we are in the season. It's very early.

What makes it harder to believe is the way we've played and that the team has shown little if any demonstrable improvement from the first exhibition until now. Marginal at best, an argument could be made we've gone backwards, and most probable we've been wildly inconsitent with a net-net of going sideways over the course of 3 months with an ocean between where we are and our max potential. While it's great that there is so much room for improvement, with each passing game the concern grows that it becomes a greater leap of faith that we will suddenly start improving.

That's just the broad strokes. On the technical side the picture is probably a touch bleaker. I went out to watch football after our game and caught pieces of a lot of other games on TV: Miami/Cuse, Xavier/Butler, MSU/Indy, ND/Duke, OKST/KSU, WVU/TCU, Creighton/SHU, and Louisville/Rutgers. Dismayed by our performance of late I found myself watching these games out of sole curiousity whether there was any team that looked as disorganized, confused, and 1 on 1 oriented as we do on offense. If any, they aren't the teams we want to be associated with (Rutgers). I'm talking the smallest things, like reversing the floor or catching the ball and not immediately putting it on the deck. I don't mean to sound trite, but we don't do these things.

Jamal Branch - a player I really like because he looks to do these things - twice on Saturday drove wildly into traffic, once on a simple 2 on 1 break, and the results were a blocked shot (at the free throw line) and a layup attempt that hit the bottom of the backboard. These are things he executed more effectively last year. I could go up and down the line and make similar comments about most every player save Harrison, either from last season to this season or from earlier this season to now. Perhaps more importantly, I can make the same analysis about the team collectively. There is such a wide gap between the 2nd half of GT, Fordham, and the 2nd half of Cuse and what we've seen in almost every other game - why is that? What is preventing this team from even scratching the surface of it's optimal operating level on a consistent basis?

I don't mean to sound overly negative, because I'm not. I expect a big effort and an energized crowd on Saturday, and can't wait to be there. If we had just lost to Xavier (a really tough place to win) and gotten our doors blown off by Georgetown (it happens even when you're playing well), no biggie. 0-2 was probably a better than 50% likelihood. It's the total lack of improvement to date, the inability to generate lineup/rotation consistency (whatever the underlying reason for that is, it's not a positive thing), and the chaos on offense. It's borderline unbelievable that we are where we are in those 3 areas on January 6. Perhaps the same could be said for the 10/11 team, but that was a team the coaching staff inheritied. This is a roster they constructed and have had for 1-3 years with far more highly-regarded players than the 10/11 squad. Doesn't make a turnaround less likely necessarily, but it does make where we are (and the need for a turnaround in the first place) far less explainable than the 10/11 team at the same point in the season.
 
Like I said in my thread "Moving Forward", until someone on this team steps up and becomes a consistent perimeter threat, we are going to be an offensively challenged team on most nights, in the half court game. Yes, we will have the occasional "clicking on all cylinders" game, like Fordham, but what you've seen this season is ugly half court offense because we can't shoot, period. Harrison will have his moments, but he isn't a Dwight Hardy type who can carry a team, at least not yet. There is no magic formula to make bad shooters into good ones, if there was, we would have used it by now. We're going to have to win with defense, transition offense and hope. The hope being that one of our guys can make outside shots.
Click to expand...

NYC, what if several of them already are and the coaching staff has not put out the point guard and inside threat that can catch the ball with them that are necessary to take advantage of their skill. It's not just the shot but the pass and the space to take it in rhythm that makes the outside shot work. I played center (in football) and I can assure you that no QB or place kicker ever thrived without me or my replacement doing our job.
 
I guess I have become the type of homer I did battle with every day during the Norm years. Am I happy with where we are now? No. Did I expect this class to be further along in year three when then the class was first assembled? Abso-freaking-lutely. So why am I not ready to run to the ledge?

- Lavin can recruit top prospects and recruiting is 80% of the battle. His first class lacked skill, but I bet he corrects that going forward.
-I expected to lose to Gtown and I knew beating Xavier at their place was unlikely.
-I really think we beat #11 Nova and start a mini-run to the tune of 14-5 or 13-6.
-I realize that Lavin put this junior class together under unheard of circumstances and in a remarkably short period of time for a guy that was out of recruiting for six or so years. He didn't have the luxury of getting the kids that had BOTH elite athleticism and skill. Those kids went to the likes of UK or Arizona. He tried to get Nick Johnson, he had Le'Bryan Nash scheduled for an official and he woo'ed Jahii Carson's mom to get him to Queens. He took the next tier of potential guys like Dom and co. Those are far from sure things. Boom or bust...Moe was a boom. Dom, so far, has been a relative bust. You have to realize many of these 2011 recruits were either committed or all but wrapped up before Lavin started recruiting.

-I think if he had to do it over again he would have made some changes to that philosophy and he has subsequently brought in guys with more skill the last two classes.

-I know many of you refuse to list excuses but having the Rise trio not qualify, losing Nuri so quickly, and then losing our most well-rounded player unexpectedly (at the time of his recruitment) really hurt. You can say that falls on the coach--and it does--but when you lose TEN guys in one season and you haven't recruited in like six years, you have to take chances to just field a team. Not having Sanchez qualify was a huge blow last year as well. I firmly believe that not having Sampson on time cost us Moe a year or maybe even two early, and gives us a player with a year less experience right now.

-That stupid zone we ran with Dunlap has doomed these kids. That kind of unique, complex defense can only be successful with a madman obsessing over every detail. When Dunlap left, that zone had no chance. Now the kids are learning yet another system and they are clearly at the point where they are thinking too much and not reacting or anticipating yet enough. This is their third coaching change in three years and they have to juggle that with learning to play with twice as many guys and with different roles.

-This team will live and die with defense. When they are on, they are menacing. Teams fumble the ball and create unforced turnovers in reaction the pressure being turned up...even after they have successfully taken the ball past the pressure and setting up their half court offense.

-My biggest problem with the staff this year is how they haven't embraced the defensive pressure this team was built to apply. I don't think they are comfortable with rolling it out for lengthy periods of time but I do see signs of it becoming a staple in the coming weeks.

-Guys are still learning their roles. Harrison and Jordan have not developed chemistry yet. When they do, it will be a different team. Sampson needs to embrace his role as a stretch-four and glass cleaner, and Sanchez needs to understand his value to this team is as a big man. He can't float on the perimeter for more then a few seconds at a time. Dom needs to stop handling the ball in the half court unless he is wide open.

-Other than the Gtown game, we haven't been blown out. That is saying something when we've played two undefeated teams in the top three in the country. Sometimes teams just have your #. Gtown is a tough matchup stylistically, they might be the only team in the league that has just as many top 100 caliber guys as us, and they know (and have the players to carry it out) that shutting down Harrison is a win at this point.

-I apologize for the long post, but this board has really taken a bad turn. If we aren't at least 13-6 entering the Butler game, I might be ready to join you. This team has a severe deficiency of well-rounded players--I get that. Physical talent is different than being a good basketball player, but they have guys that can excel in one or two areas that need to play to those strengths and avoid their glaring weaknesses. Butler has very productive guys that don't even consider outside shots or try to handle on the perimeter. They also didn't have to play 30 mpg as freshmen and score for their team to win.
Click to expand...

Fair post
 
Like I said in my thread "Moving Forward", until someone on this team steps up and becomes a consistent perimeter threat, we are going to be an offensively challenged team on most nights, in the half court game. Yes, we will have the occasional "clicking on all cylinders" game, like Fordham, but what you've seen this season is ugly half court offense because we can't shoot, period. Harrison will have his moments, but he isn't a Dwight Hardy type who can carry a team, at least not yet. There is no magic formula to make bad shooters into good ones, if there was, we would have used it by now. We're going to have to win with defense, transition offense and hope. The hope being that one of our guys can make outside shots.
Click to expand...

NYC, what if several of them already are and the coaching staff has not put out the point guard and inside threat that can catch the ball with them that are necessary to take advantage of their skill. It's not just the shot but the pass and the space to take it in rhythm that makes the outside shot work. I played center (in football) and I can assure you that no QB or place kicker ever thrived without me or my replacement doing our job.
Click to expand...

YOU ARE CORRECT It takes 5 players doing their role for success
 
I guess I have become the type of homer I did battle with every day during the Norm years. Am I happy with where we are now? No. Did I expect this class to be further along in year three when then the class was first assembled? Abso-freaking-lutely. So why am I not ready to run to the ledge?

- Lavin can recruit top prospects and recruiting is 80% of the battle. His first class lacked skill, but I bet he corrects that going forward.
-I expected to lose to Gtown and I knew beating Xavier at their place was unlikely.
-I really think we beat #11 Nova and start a mini-run to the tune of 14-5 or 13-6.
-I realize that Lavin put this junior class together under unheard of circumstances and in a remarkably short period of time for a guy that was out of recruiting for six or so years. He didn't have the luxury of getting the kids that had BOTH elite athleticism and skill. Those kids went to the likes of UK or Arizona. He tried to get Nick Johnson, he had Le'Bryan Nash scheduled for an official and he woo'ed Jahii Carson's mom to get him to Queens. He took the next tier of potential guys like Dom and co. Those are far from sure things. Boom or bust...Moe was a boom. Dom, so far, has been a relative bust. You have to realize many of these 2011 recruits were either committed or all but wrapped up before Lavin started recruiting.

-I think if he had to do it over again he would have made some changes to that philosophy and he has subsequently brought in guys with more skill the last two classes.

-I know many of you refuse to list excuses but having the Rise trio not qualify, losing Nuri so quickly, and then losing our most well-rounded player unexpectedly (at the time of his recruitment) really hurt. You can say that falls on the coach--and it does--but when you lose TEN guys in one season and you haven't recruited in like six years, you have to take chances to just field a team. Not having Sanchez qualify was a huge blow last year as well. I firmly believe that not having Sampson on time cost us Moe a year or maybe even two early, and gives us a player with a year less experience right now.

-That stupid zone we ran with Dunlap has doomed these kids. That kind of unique, complex defense can only be successful with a madman obsessing over every detail. When Dunlap left, that zone had no chance. Now the kids are learning yet another system and they are clearly at the point where they are thinking too much and not reacting or anticipating yet enough. This is their third coaching change in three years and they have to juggle that with learning to play with twice as many guys and with different roles.

-This team will live and die with defense. When they are on, they are menacing. Teams fumble the ball and create unforced turnovers in reaction the pressure being turned up...even after they have successfully taken the ball past the pressure and setting up their half court offense.

-My biggest problem with the staff this year is how they haven't embraced the defensive pressure this team was built to apply. I don't think they are comfortable with rolling it out for lengthy periods of time but I do see signs of it becoming a staple in the coming weeks.

-Guys are still learning their roles. Harrison and Jordan have not developed chemistry yet. When they do, it will be a different team. Sampson needs to embrace his role as a stretch-four and glass cleaner, and Sanchez needs to understand his value to this team is as a big man. He can't float on the perimeter for more then a few seconds at a time. Dom needs to stop handling the ball in the half court unless he is wide open.

-Other than the Gtown game, we haven't been blown out. That is saying something when we've played two undefeated teams in the top three in the country. Sometimes teams just have your #. Gtown is a tough matchup stylistically, they might be the only team in the league that has just as many top 100 caliber guys as us, and they know (and have the players to carry it out) that shutting down Harrison is a win at this point.

-I apologize for the long post, but this board has really taken a bad turn. If we aren't at least 13-6 entering the Butler game, I might be ready to join you. This team has a severe deficiency of well-rounded players--I get that. Physical talent is different than being a good basketball player, but they have guys that can excel in one or two areas that need to play to those strengths and avoid their glaring weaknesses. Butler has very productive guys that don't even consider outside shots or try to handle on the perimeter. They also didn't have to play 30 mpg as freshmen and score for their team to win.
Click to expand...

Marillac - I enjoy reading your posts and appreciate your knowledge and insight
But, I must disagree with some of your points
We didn't just lose to Georgetown, we were thoroughly embarrassed and taken to the woodshed
Lavin has been an excellent recruiter - Most of our core players were 4 star kids coming out of high school
He seems to be a great guy who is gregarious, excellent with the media and a wonderful "face" for our program
But, looking at the technical end of his job, Lavin has a lot of warts
One major problem is that there is no evidence of player development
I can't name one player who is appreciably better today that he was when he entered St John's
Another major problem is that our kids are incapable of running a coherent half court offense
To add insult to injury, this team has yet to find a defensive identity
In a nutshell, our team does not show evidence of being well coached
We got the same Lavin that UCLA had many years ago
Click to expand...

In 2010-2011 we were 11-8 at the end of January. We lost at Gtown by TWENTY-FIVE. We were also destroyed by Louisville by almost 30 and lost to Fordham, St. Bonaventure, and St. Mary's.

Then something happened. The seniors got it. They mastered the defense and they found their roles. Why is it so hard to believe it can happen again? This team is much younger with more upside. Our best player is a frosh, we start a soph and a 1st year d-1 player, and our top big off the bench is a soph. After Saturday we will have 3/6 of our hardest conference games behind us and six games against SH, DePaul, and Providence ahead. We haven't even played a conference home game yet. Too early for all of this. Just.Way.Too.Early.
Click to expand...

Ironically none were his players.
Click to expand...


At this point in the 2010-2011 season, St John's had already racked up major wins against #13 G'town and W Virginia (the latter on the road to a tournament team).

So while they were still lots of kinks still to be ironed out, as you rightly point out above, the team was well on it way by this point in the schedule.

Today’s team is light years away from that. You can't even equate them. We're now 14 games in, plus a European tour and Lavin still can't come up with a consistent starting rotation?? Something is seriously amiss.
 
I guess I have become the type of homer I did battle with every day during the Norm years. Am I happy with where we are now? No. Did I expect this class to be further along in year three when then the class was first assembled? Abso-freaking-lutely. So why am I not ready to run to the ledge?

- Lavin can recruit top prospects and recruiting is 80% of the battle. His first class lacked skill, but I bet he corrects that going forward.
-I expected to lose to Gtown and I knew beating Xavier at their place was unlikely.
-I really think we beat #11 Nova and start a mini-run to the tune of 14-5 or 13-6.
-I realize that Lavin put this junior class together under unheard of circumstances and in a remarkably short period of time for a guy that was out of recruiting for six or so years. He didn't have the luxury of getting the kids that had BOTH elite athleticism and skill. Those kids went to the likes of UK or Arizona. He tried to get Nick Johnson, he had Le'Bryan Nash scheduled for an official and he woo'ed Jahii Carson's mom to get him to Queens. He took the next tier of potential guys like Dom and co. Those are far from sure things. Boom or bust...Moe was a boom. Dom, so far, has been a relative bust. You have to realize many of these 2011 recruits were either committed or all but wrapped up before Lavin started recruiting.

-I think if he had to do it over again he would have made some changes to that philosophy and he has subsequently brought in guys with more skill the last two classes.

-I know many of you refuse to list excuses but having the Rise trio not qualify, losing Nuri so quickly, and then losing our most well-rounded player unexpectedly (at the time of his recruitment) really hurt. You can say that falls on the coach--and it does--but when you lose TEN guys in one season and you haven't recruited in like six years, you have to take chances to just field a team. Not having Sanchez qualify was a huge blow last year as well. I firmly believe that not having Sampson on time cost us Moe a year or maybe even two early, and gives us a player with a year less experience right now.

-That stupid zone we ran with Dunlap has doomed these kids. That kind of unique, complex defense can only be successful with a madman obsessing over every detail. When Dunlap left, that zone had no chance. Now the kids are learning yet another system and they are clearly at the point where they are thinking too much and not reacting or anticipating yet enough. This is their third coaching change in three years and they have to juggle that with learning to play with twice as many guys and with different roles.

-This team will live and die with defense. When they are on, they are menacing. Teams fumble the ball and create unforced turnovers in reaction the pressure being turned up...even after they have successfully taken the ball past the pressure and setting up their half court offense.

-My biggest problem with the staff this year is how they haven't embraced the defensive pressure this team was built to apply. I don't think they are comfortable with rolling it out for lengthy periods of time but I do see signs of it becoming a staple in the coming weeks.

-Guys are still learning their roles. Harrison and Jordan have not developed chemistry yet. When they do, it will be a different team. Sampson needs to embrace his role as a stretch-four and glass cleaner, and Sanchez needs to understand his value to this team is as a big man. He can't float on the perimeter for more then a few seconds at a time. Dom needs to stop handling the ball in the half court unless he is wide open.

-Other than the Gtown game, we haven't been blown out. That is saying something when we've played two undefeated teams in the top three in the country. Sometimes teams just have your #. Gtown is a tough matchup stylistically, they might be the only team in the league that has just as many top 100 caliber guys as us, and they know (and have the players to carry it out) that shutting down Harrison is a win at this point.

-I apologize for the long post, but this board has really taken a bad turn. If we aren't at least 13-6 entering the Butler game, I might be ready to join you. This team has a severe deficiency of well-rounded players--I get that. Physical talent is different than being a good basketball player, but they have guys that can excel in one or two areas that need to play to those strengths and avoid their glaring weaknesses. Butler has very productive guys that don't even consider outside shots or try to handle on the perimeter. They also didn't have to play 30 mpg as freshmen and score for their team to win.
Click to expand...

Marillac - I enjoy reading your posts and appreciate your knowledge and insight
But, I must disagree with some of your points
We didn't just lose to Georgetown, we were thoroughly embarrassed and taken to the woodshed
Lavin has been an excellent recruiter - Most of our core players were 4 star kids coming out of high school
He seems to be a great guy who is gregarious, excellent with the media and a wonderful "face" for our program
But, looking at the technical end of his job, Lavin has a lot of warts
One major problem is that there is no evidence of player development
I can't name one player who is appreciably better today that he was when he entered St John's
Another major problem is that our kids are incapable of running a coherent half court offense
To add insult to injury, this team has yet to find a defensive identity
In a nutshell, our team does not show evidence of being well coached
We got the same Lavin that UCLA had many years ago
Click to expand...

In 2010-2011 we were 11-8 at the end of January. We lost at Gtown by TWENTY-FIVE. We were also destroyed by Louisville by almost 30 and lost to Fordham, St. Bonaventure, and St. Mary's.

Then something happened. The seniors got it. They mastered the defense and they found their roles. Why is it so hard to believe it can happen again? This team is much younger with more upside. Our best player is a frosh, we start a soph and a 1st year d-1 player, and our top big off the bench is a soph. After Saturday we will have 3/6 of our hardest conference games behind us and six games against SH, DePaul, and Providence ahead. We haven't even played a conference home game yet. Too early for all of this. Just.Way.Too.Early.
Click to expand...

Ironically none were his players.
Click to expand...


At this point in the 2010-2011 season, St John's had already racked up major wins against #13 G'town and W Virginia (the latter on the road to a tournament team).

So while they were still lots of kinks still to be ironed out, as you rightly point out above, the team was well on it way by this point in the schedule.

Today’s team is light years away from that. You can't even equate them. We're now 14 games in, plus a European tour and Lavin still can't come up with a consistent starting rotation?? Something is seriously amiss.
Click to expand...

To be fair, in 2010-2011, we got out of the gates 3-0, and then promptly lost 5 out of 6. We had the benefit in 2010 of playing a weak Providence team on the road, which we squeaked by, and then played Georgetown at home in game 3. Any notion that this was an NCAA team didn't happen until we subsequently won 8 of 9, after starting out 4-5. Additionally, the team looked lost until Dwight Hardy was made starting PG, which was a real gamble that paid dividends.
 
Looie never had an abundance of shooters. Some years he had maybe one, and often played with point guards with limited range. However, his teams rarely beat themselves, played hard and tough defense, and were generally not selfish. They knew what shots were in their range, and didn't often stray. His teams limited turnovers and dumb mistakes. Yes, the three point shot has opened up the game, but the fundamentals are the same. Even with the expected shooting woes, this team, with its length, should win the rebounding battle most games and force a lot of turnovers. They don't. They should out hustle the other guy. Not seeing that. They should look to penetrate and get to the line, or draw double teams and pass off. When guys like Sampson and D Lo start their drive, more often than not it's going up, and more often than not off balance. Almost every one on this team is shoot first, ask questions later. Except Dom, who teams beg to shoot open 15 footers that he passes up because of his limited range.
 
The trend is to jump on Lavin. He should be getting some heat but i truly believe that he does not deserve it all.
*Our players act like divas!- We were out hustled in 90% of games this year. The reason we won against the likes of Wagner and others is based on having much more talented players. 90% of our opponents put in more heart and hustle into the games WE DON'T!
*Suspensions/rule violations-I don't agree with not starting your top players and sitting them for first 2/3 minutes is a punishment. I would respect the decision if he sat them down for the entire game. I know from experience violating a rule and having the same punishment(not starting for 2 minutes) was always viewed as a joke.
 
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