Going Big

[SJU1512]

It's pretty clear right now that Jordan/Harrison in the backcourt and Sampson/Obekpa in the frontcourt are the core of our rotation. And it's been a very productive core for over 6 weeks now.

Where we just aren't getting enough - especially in the context of getting over the hump against a Villanova or Xavier - is from that 5th spot. We are getting production from other players, particularly Sanchez of late, but also Branch, Greene, and Pointer (the latter three in inconsistent fashion). However that production is often with one of the core 4 out of the game and thus we haven't been able to develop a "go-to" lineup, even during the winning streak. I think the lack of this go-to 5 is part of what has held us back in close games this year against top competition.

We tried going big earlier in the year with Sampson/Sanchez/Obekpa at the same time, and I don't blame Lavin for going away from it because it clearly wasn't working. However, one, at that time all three players were somewhat out of sync individually, let alone trying to gel collectively. Two, there was still plenty of mixing and matching left to experiment with. Now, on the whole, these 3 guys are playing their best basketball of the season and we have experimented with every lineup under the sun, and I don't think we have anything better right now than attempting to go big again.

I'm not suggesting that this become a 30 MPG lineup, but I also think it has to be more than 0 MPG at this point. At the very least it should reduce the minutes Greene/Pointer spend filling that 5th spot from 50-60 minutes to closer to 40-45. Especially situationally - yesterday was a perfect opportunity, with as weak as DePaul is up front, to go big and make them adjust to us; instead we went small in reaction to DePaul all game.

We are approaching our most important games of the season that are going to get won and lost in the details, and this is a detail we need to tighten up.

 

[thetux1]

It isn't only the "5th" spot that is inconsistent. If you wanna see inconsistency look at Harrison's last 2 games and/or last 2 halves. Same with Sampson. Inconsistency seems to be a team wide epidemic. If they had consistency we wouldn't be 9-8 and on the outside looking in.

 

[tom in salem]

+10.
Our best 5 players are Jordan, Harrison, Sampson, Sanchez and Obekpa.
I mentioned this lineup months ago.
Best thing is it would/should provide better rebounding, which is desperately needed, and would diminish the minutes of Greene, Pointer and Branch.

 

[simplyred]

It isn't only the "5th" spot that is inconsistent. If you wanna see inconsistency look at Harrison's last 2 games and/or last 2 halves. Same with Sampson. Inconsistency seems to be a team wide epidemic. If they had consistency we wouldn't be 9-8 and on the outside looking in.

McDermott and Cotton are probably the only two players in the conference who have played consistently well throughout the year. Evryone else has up and down games.

 

[paultzman]

It's pretty clear right now that Jordan/Harrison in the backcourt and Sampson/Obekpa in the frontcourt are the core of our rotation. And it's been a very productive core for over 6 weeks now.

Where we just aren't getting enough - especially in the context of getting over the hump against a Villanova or Xavier - is from that 5th spot. We are getting production from other players, particularly Sanchez of late, but also Branch, Greene, and Pointer (the latter three in inconsistent fashion). However that production is often with one of the core 4 out of the game and thus we haven't been able to develop a "go-to" lineup, even during the winning streak. I think the lack of this go-to 5 is part of what has held us back in close games this year against top competition.

We tried going big earlier in the year with Sampson/Sanchez/Obekpa at the same time, and I don't blame Lavin for going away from it because it clearly wasn't working. However, one, at that time all three players were somewhat out of sync individually, let alone trying to gel collectively. Two, there was still plenty of mixing and matching left to experiment with. Now, on the whole, these 3 guys are playing their best basketball of the season and we have experimented with every lineup under the sun, and I don't think we have anything better right now than attempting to go big again.

I'm not suggesting that this become a 30 MPG lineup, but I also think it has to be more than 0 MPG at this point. At the very least it should reduce the minutes Greene/Pointer spend filling that 5th spot from 50-60 minutes to closer to 40-45. Especially situationally - yesterday was a perfect opportunity, with as weak as DePaul is up front, to go big and make them adjust to us; instead we went small in reaction to DePaul all game.

We are approaching our most important games of the season that are going to get won and lost in the details, and this is a detail we need to tighten up.

Excellent points.

 

[SJU1512]

It isn't only the "5th" spot that is inconsistent. If you wanna see inconsistency look at Harrison's last 2 games and/or last 2 halves. Same with Sampson. Inconsistency seems to be a team wide epidemic. If they had consistency we wouldn't be 9-8 and on the outside looking in.

McDermott and Cotton are probably the only two players in the conference who have played consistently well throughout the year. Evryone else has up and down games.

Completely agreed - almost every individual player is inconsistent. But I was being intentionally generous (coming off a win with a big 2 weeks looming - positivity!) when I described Greene's and Pointer's minutes as inconsistent. Reality is more along the lines of empty minutes as the average baseline, with just as many detrimental games as good games mixed in. Especially for two guys who get starter/key player level minutes.

My real point was not about the individuals though, it was that we haven't been able to generate consistency from even one five-player unit. That is something not every team is dealing with - especially the really quality teams. If I'm looking at one thing in practice this week as we gear up for a must-win road game and critical conference tournament games, it's this. That's the most obvious area I see where we can make the jump from bubble team to really quality team. I think Sanchez is the guy right now, and that Branch, Greene, Pointer, and Gift provide a very formidable bench that can give you a number of different things depending upon what is needed.

 

[logen]

As I have posted before one of the real problems with this team is its inconsistency up and down the lineup. The DePaul game again drove that home, so there is no "go to" lineup. We are what we are; I don't believe I have ever seen a team as schizophrenic as this one. We probably have the talent to comptete for a national championship but just as probably won't make the tournament. To watch us fold against DePaul like we did with a backcourt in their 3rd year playing together was mind boggling. Playing to time and score and situational basketball is just not in the vocabulary of this team. Having said all that we won so we stay in the mix. Kudos and deepest sympathies to Pointer and sympathies and understanding to Jordan. The thinly veiled criticisms of him and Lavin for not playing is as hard to understand as anything I have seen on this or any other board.

 

[fan5577]

+10.
Our best 5 players are Jordan, Harrison, Sampson, Sanchez and Obekpa.
I mentioned this lineup months ago.
Best thing is it would/should provide better rebounding, which is desperately needed, and would diminish the minutes of Greene, Pointer and Branch.

\
Sanchez too often looks lost on defense. GG plays stronger defense but is to weak offensively to leave out there for long stretches, to me that seems like the dilemma.

 

[SJU61982]

+10.
Our best 5 players are Jordan, Harrison, Sampson, Sanchez and Obekpa.
I mentioned this lineup months ago.
Best thing is it would/should provide better rebounding, which is desperately needed, and would diminish the minutes of Greene, Pointer and Branch.

They are our 5 best, but I've said all year long, that Sampson and Sanchez are too similar in their styles of play to ever work well together. In fact, when one of those two has taken over games, it's usually when the other is sitting on the bench.

It's been better second half of the year, but there are still times when that combination together, hampers us. No one's fault really, they are just too similar.

 

[GardenCity62]

We have a topic almost all will agree on. SJU has a best 5 lineup for Mon., a different one for Tues. and so on. This makes rooting and watching this team exasperating.
I think it is also the main reason for all the pro and con Lavin topics. If watching this group can be frustrating how difficult must it be to coach them?

 

[STJClass_2013]

I think our go to line up should be

Jordan
Harrison
Pointer
Sanchez/Sampson depending whos hot
Obpeka

I know many on here don't like Pointer, but he is one of the best defenders on the team, he can score, pass, rebound, steal and block shots. He ball handling has gotten better.
My complaint about him is that he doesn't move enough. Working in some back door cuts and slashing from the wings would greatly help this team, as well as attacking the offensive glass.

 

[Amaseinyourface]

I think our go to line up should be

Jordan
Harrison
Pointer
Sanchez/Sampson depending whos hot
Obpeka

I know many on here don't like Pointer, but he is one of the best defenders on the team, he can score, pass, rebound, steal and block shots. He ball handling has gotten better.
My complaint about him is that he doesn't move enough. Working in some back door cuts and slashing from the wings would greatly help this team, as well as attacking the offensive glass.

I hate piling on about Dom but I dont see him being able to score or rebound and his defense is so overrated. He gets blocks and steals because he doesnt work on staying in front of his man and stopping the ball. He had a good game against depaul but lets see it against marquette.

 

[Marillac]

I think our go to line up should be

Jordan
Harrison
Pointer
Sanchez/Sampson depending whos hot
Obpeka

I know many on here don't like Pointer, but he is one of the best defenders on the team, he can score, pass, rebound, steal and block shots. He ball handling has gotten better.
My complaint about him is that he doesn't move enough. Working in some back door cuts and slashing from the wings would greatly help this team, as well as attacking the offensive glass.

I hate piling on about Dom but I dont see him being able to score or rebound and his defense is so overrated. He gets blocks and steals because he doesnt work on staying in front of his man and stopping the ball. He had a good game against depaul but lets see it against marquette.

Dom's blocks come almost solely from his bad defense that let's his man into the lane in the first place.

We can't go big because Sampson can't defend the three. Our best lineup is Branch-Jordan-Harrison-Sampson-Obekpa.

 

[SJU1512]

I think our go to line up should be

Jordan
Harrison
Pointer
Sanchez/Sampson depending whos hot
Obpeka

I know many on here don't like Pointer, but he is one of the best defenders on the team, he can score, pass, rebound, steal and block shots. He ball handling has gotten better.
My complaint about him is that he doesn't move enough. Working in some back door cuts and slashing from the wings would greatly help this team, as well as attacking the offensive glass.

I hate piling on about Dom but I dont see him being able to score or rebound and his defense is so overrated. He gets blocks and steals because he doesnt work on staying in front of his man and stopping the ball. He had a good game against depaul but lets see it against marquette.

Dom's blocks come almost solely from his bad defense that let's his man into the lane in the first place.

We can't go big because Sampson can't defend the three. Our best lineup is Branch-Jordan-Harrison-Sampson-Obekpa.

A lot of others pointed out that Dom was not a sound defender (particularly after last year), and I have to admit I didn't see it. Maybe it's because I have really been watching it this year but now I couldn't agree more. Good at getting in passing lanes and picking up deflections, good shotblocker for his size, but not a square up the shoulders and lock somebody down defender. More of a gambler.

I agree that going big is imperfect. And the reason I'm circling back on it now (really almost 2 months since we've even flirted with the lineup) is because we don't have a 5 that doesn't have drawbacks. Your lineup above would actually be my other most-used (especially because Harrison is rebounding like a 3 this year), but Branch and Jordan both need the ball in their hands to be most effective and neither is a good enough shooter to consistently play off the ball. I'd put that about on the level of Sampson not being able to guard the 3 in terms of drawbacks.

With the big lineup, the way I'd neutralize that issue is by pressing (with Sampson on the ball) falling back into a 3-2 (with Sampson up top). We played this zone in the first half @Xavier, and Sampson's length gave them a lot of problems reversing the ball or throwing over the top to the high post (held them to 27 points in the half). We didn't see it the rest of the game and we haven't seen it with Sampson at the top since. It also provides a nice contrast to hard man to man when we go back to a smaller lineup with Branch. Just my .02.

 

[usguard]

I think our go to line up should be

Jordan
Harrison
Pointer
Sanchez/Sampson depending whos hot
Obpeka

I know many on here don't like Pointer, but he is one of the best defenders on the team, he can score, pass, rebound, steal and block shots. He ball handling has gotten better.
My complaint about him is that he doesn't move enough. Working in some back door cuts and slashing from the wings would greatly help this team, as well as attacking the offensive glass.[/quote.
.
I am sure this has been told to the players over and over. Sometimes you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink . If many here think the basics have not been taught with this staff they are fooling themselves I for one put 80% of the problems on the players When you have a very good player he will step up an carry his team on an important game We tend to love our team thus project skills to be better than reality. I like this team and think they should all stay another yr and continue to progress their skill level, their working together, their movement , shooting etc. etc. Then next yr could be a great yr. With the addition of some key recruits could be a top ten team At this point NCAA looks bleak but winning the Nit would be sweet

 

[Marillac]

I think our go to line up should be

Jordan
Harrison
Pointer
Sanchez/Sampson depending whos hot
Obpeka

I know many on here don't like Pointer, but he is one of the best defenders on the team, he can score, pass, rebound, steal and block shots. He ball handling has gotten better.
My complaint about him is that he doesn't move enough. Working in some back door cuts and slashing from the wings would greatly help this team, as well as attacking the offensive glass.

I hate piling on about Dom but I dont see him being able to score or rebound and his defense is so overrated. He gets blocks and steals because he doesnt work on staying in front of his man and stopping the ball. He had a good game against depaul but lets see it against marquette.

Dom's blocks come almost solely from his bad defense that let's his man into the lane in the first place.

We can't go big because Sampson can't defend the three. Our best lineup is Branch-Jordan-Harrison-Sampson-Obekpa.

A lot of others pointed out that Dom was not a sound defender (particularly after last year), and I have to admit I didn't see it. Maybe it's because I have really been watching it this year but now I couldn't agree more. Good at getting in passing lanes and picking up deflections, good shotblocker for his size, but not a square up the shoulders and lock somebody down defender. More of a gambler.

I agree that going big is imperfect. And the reason I'm circling back on it now (really almost 2 months since we've even flirted with the lineup) is because we don't have a 5 that doesn't have drawbacks. Your lineup above would actually be my other most-used (especially because Harrison is rebounding like a 3 this year), but Branch and Jordan both need the ball in their hands to be most effective and neither is a good enough shooter to consistently play off the ball. I'd put that about on the level of Sampson not being able to guard the 3 in terms of drawbacks.

With the big lineup, the way I'd neutralize that issue is by pressing (with Sampson on the ball) falling back into a 3-2 (with Sampson up top). We played this zone in the first half @Xavier, and Sampson's length gave them a lot of problems reversing the ball or throwing over the top to the high post (held them to 27 points in the half). We didn't see it the rest of the game and we haven't seen it with Sampson at the top since. It also provides a nice contrast to hard man to man when we go back to a smaller lineup with Branch. Just my .02.

If we could be assured that all three bigs would hit the ofensive glass, I'd be all for it. The reality is that Sanchez will probably float on the perimeter--which I would take over Dom any day because he is actually somewhat of a threat out there.

I just don't think think Lavin stresses offensive rebounding and that is crazy to me. Sean Evans was an offenisve rebounding matchine his junior year and that kept us in a lot of ugly games. He disappeared as a senior in that category...the whole team did. Add 10 offensive rebounds to that Gonzaga game and all of a suddent it's not a blowout.

 

[SJUalum98]

We wasted Sanchez's skillset this year.

Sanchez is the type of player that needs a specified role.

Watch Orlando out there and he looked like he was playing in a rec league.

I can count the number of times on one hand when he was in the post this year. 6'9 pump faking at the 3 point line.

We had to contact lawyers just to get him to be eligible and we throw him out there freelancing?

 

[paultzman]

We wasted Sanchez's skillset this year.

Sanchez is the type of player that needs a specified role.

Watch Orlando out there and he looked like he was playing in a rec league.

I can count the number of times on one hand when he was in the post this year. 6'9 pump faking at the 3 point line.

We had to contact lawyers just to get him to be eligible and we throw him out there freelancing?

+1

 

[Marillac]

We wasted Sanchez's skillset this year.

Sanchez is the type of player that needs a specified role.

Watch Orlando out there and he looked like he was playing in a rec league.

I can count the number of times on one hand when he was in the post this year. 6'9 pump faking at the 3 point line.

We had to contact lawyers just to get him to be eligible and we throw him out there freelancing?

Spot on. He's better than what we've seen.

 

[1and1sju]

It's pretty clear right now that Jordan/Harrison in the backcourt and Sampson/Obekpa in the frontcourt are the core of our rotation. And it's been a very productive core for over 6 weeks now.

Where we just aren't getting enough - especially in the context of getting over the hump against a Villanova or Xavier - is from that 5th spot. We are getting production from other players, particularly Sanchez of late, but also Branch, Greene, and Pointer (the latter three in inconsistent fashion). However that production is often with one of the core 4 out of the game and thus we haven't been able to develop a "go-to" lineup, even during the winning streak. I think the lack of this go-to 5 is part of what has held us back in close games this year against top competition.

We tried going big earlier in the year with Sampson/Sanchez/Obekpa at the same time, and I don't blame Lavin for going away from it because it clearly wasn't working. However, one, at that time all three players were somewhat out of sync individually, let alone trying to gel collectively. Two, there was still plenty of mixing and matching left to experiment with. Now, on the whole, these 3 guys are playing their best basketball of the season and we have experimented with every lineup under the sun, and I don't think we have anything better right now than attempting to go big again.

I'm not suggesting that this become a 30 MPG lineup, but I also think it has to be more than 0 MPG at this point. At the very least it should reduce the minutes Greene/Pointer spend filling that 5th spot from 50-60 minutes to closer to 40-45. Especially situationally - yesterday was a perfect opportunity, with as weak as DePaul is up front, to go big and make them adjust to us; instead we went small in reaction to DePaul all game.

We are approaching our most important games of the season that are going to get won and lost in the details, and this is a detail we need to tighten up.

Can't do it. If you start Obekpa, Sampson, Sanchez who do you bring in when 2 of them need a breather after 10mins or pickup a quick two fouls? Then you are FORCED to go small with your second lineup. If you start a balanced lineup, you can bring in Sanchez and stay balanced.. or bring in Dom and go small, or bring in Sanchez and Gift and stay "Big". You have options.

If you start all 3 and any of them get a little banged up or pickup quick fouls, it throws off the gameplan for the rest of the night. Plus - Sampson and Obekpa are used to their roles as the 4. Sampson knows where he should be getting the ball in that baseline extended area. They know who they are supposed to rotate to guard when we play zone etc.
You make Jakarr or Sanchez play the 3 and then their spacing is going to go to shit.