Cancelling Student Debt / Students Respond

jerseyshorejohnny

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 Canceling Student Debt: Is $10,000 Too Much or Not Enough?Students debate Joe Biden’s proposal to forgive student loans.

March 2, 2021  / Wall Street Journal



 Feeding the Beas

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President Biden’s proposal to cancel student debt is a regressive handout that fails to hold accountable the true perpetrators of the debt crisis: the universities.In 1979 the annual undergraduate tuition at Cornell was $3,368, or around $13,000 after adjusting for inflation. 

Today, it is north of $50,000. Universities charge these exorbitant fees, including for majors offering little financial return, because they can get away with it. The government grants an easy line of credit to anyone who raises his hand. It is as though Oprah were in charge of policy: “You get a loan! And you get a loan!” and on and on. 

The government shouldn’t only regulate predatory tuition increases, but also ask universities to publish statistics on the financial return each major generates. Students should know before they take out tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans.If we cancel some student debt, universities will increase tuition further—perhaps sending the next generation of students even deeper down the debt spiral.

Oh, and how will the majority of Americans who never went to college, but have other debt of their own, feel about all this?—Rahul Srivastava, Cornell University, law (J.D.)

The Right Balance 

President Biden’s proposal to cancel $10,000 in student debt per borrower strikes an effective balance. Student loans are a major economic burden, diminishing the spending and savings of young and prime-earning-age adults. Some forgiveness will ease anxieties about potentially debilitating debt and help boost the economy.A study by the National Center for Education Statistics found that around 64% of people who default on their student loans owe less than $10,000.

A significant portion of them never earned a college credential and come from underserved communities. They could use the help.Too much debt forgiveness, however, would offer relief to those who don’t need it and raise serious issues of fairness for those who have paid off their debts.

Debt cancellation becomes increasingly regressive as the amount of relief is increased, helping those with the highest earning potentials. As Mr. Biden has indicated, any additional forgiveness could be better used in other ways. His proposal could change millions of Americans’ lives for the better.—Sunay Bhat, University of California, Los Angeles, electrical and computer engineering

Put a Name and Face to a Chec

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I attend a college that doesn’t accept government-funded loans. Instead, students receive support through generous donor-funded scholarships and school-run loan programs that personalize financial support. The great accomplishment of this system is that it preserves accountability and responsibility. Student loans, at their core, become a relationship in which someone who has achieved success looks at someone with the potential for success and says, “I believe in you.”

Having a relationship with my loan manager motivates me to work harder in school to prove that the investment in me was worthwhile.When I repay my loans, the money will go directly to support other students at my alma mater, making it more of a philanthropic exercise than a forced payment. This is the way loans should work. When the government gets involved, it destroys the lender-borrower relationship and, consequently, the aspect of personal responsibility.

Now lenders prey on naive young adults, knowing that federal law protects their loans from bankruptcy, and student borrowers come to resent the institutions that finance their education.Does this perverse system mean we should cancel debt and give up, in part or in full, on holding people responsible for their decisions? No. Instead, we should return to a localized system in which students come to understand the gravity of borrowing money rather than seeing it as an entitlement.—Callahan Stoub, Hillsdale College, history

Aim Higher

President Biden’s debt-cancellation proposal may seem generous, but it is a temporary Band-Aid solution to a much deeper issue. The president came to the $10,000 figure only after rejecting $50,000 and feigning a lack of power to act. Then, in arguing that additional money could be better spent on early childhood education, he insinuated a false choice.

Most recently, Mr. Biden has suggested that those with larger amounts of debt must have attended elite private colleges, but that isn’t true.The country can do more for its students. Mr. Biden’s noncommittal position stems from his broader agenda of promoting unity. While it is commendable to attempt to heal political divisions, in attempting to appease both sides he often ends up pleasing neither.—Riya Kale, University of Texas at Austin, political science and business

A Good Investment

I’m no stranger to economic precariousness. As a first-generation Mexican immigrant who grew up in San Francisco, America’s most expensive city, I get it. But let’s get something straight: Student loans are not financial shackles. They are investments in economic mobility.I was the first in my family to go to college.

I had to have more financial sobriety than many of my peers at prep school, where I was one of the “scholarship students” among the children of San Francisco’s elite. While my friends were going to small liberal arts colleges for $70,000 a year, I enrolled at nearby Berkeley City College.

I saved tens of thousands of dollars in student loans by going to community college for my first two years and then transferring to the University of California. I still have some loans, but I know they are a worthwhile investment, not a burden.

At nearly 14%, the average return on investment for student loans is around twice the average long-term return on stocks and four times the return on bonds. The average college graduate annually earns $30,000 more than the average worker with only a high-school diploma, who will likely end up paying for President Biden’s proposal.Progressives are usually against subsidizing already-profitable investments.

Why should student loans be any different?—Ivan Varela, University of California, Berkeley, economics and theolog

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Cut Gen Z Some Slack

The common enough logic that “I had to pay for my full tuition, so they should have to pay as well” is shortsighted. I have no problem with offering relief, even though I was lucky enough to be able to pay my tuition in full. Stranding students with outrageous quantities of debt will choke the next generation’s ability to take economic risks, such as starting businesses and applying for loans.

—Ross Wheeless, University of Arizona, history (M.A.)

Who’s Subsidizing Whom?Those who argue that the government should pay our college tuition often say that education is a good investment in America’s future. While it may be true that attending college is good for many people, it is not good categorically. It may be worthwhile for one person to get a doctorate, but someone else may be better off with only an undergraduate degree—or without a degree. The value of education isn’t universal; it is different for everyone.

The best we can do is present the true costs of education so people can decide for themselves what’s worth paying for now and into the future.President Biden’s proposal to cancel some student-loan debt is a classic example of what the late economist Walter E. Williams described as Congress “forcing one American to serve the purposes of another.”

Since college education typically results in greater future earnings, debt cancellation means that all taxpayers, including lower-income Americans, would be subsidizing the disproportionately wealthy and soon-to-be-wealthy student population

.It is ironic that Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders and many in academia claim to be defenders of the downtrodden yet support this reverse income-redistribution scheme. This plan won’t make college tuition any cheaper, but so long as Americans want to live at the expense of other Americans, politicians will continue offering such proposals.

—Adam Stein, Washington University in St. Louis, chemical engineering
 
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The WSJ article presented some interesting perspectives.  I anticipated the article would present more postions advocating for more relief, so I was surprised to read postions advocating for more personal responsibilities.  I have to admit, I don't really understand what cancelling debt means for the federal government.  I presume somewhere in the governement record keeping is a receivable with money returning to go the government with each loan payment and who knows what happens with this money .  It seems cancelling student debt, is really reclassifying the debt from "student debt" and calling it "general government debt".  Who  pays and when does this money get paid back worries me.
 
The cost of pandemic relief is already staggering and will necessitate hefty increases in taxes across the board.    This is a very bad idea overall.  How do you compensate families who remortgaged their homes to avoid student loans for their children, or those who sacrificed to save for their kids educations?   How do you compensate students who went to low cost community and state colleges and worked nearly full time to avoid debt?    How do you compensate those who attended universities by risking their lives first through military service?

Too many students rolled living expenses into their student loans.   Too many attended private universities on student loans.   Too many majored in careers that would make it difficult to repay hefty loans.    Too many students used student loan money to study abroad.  

I remember one session during parent's orientation for incoming freshman at a pricy Jesuit college where a priest passionately lambasted parents who would disocurage their kids from choosing low wage careers.   I remember thinking how out of touch this priest was, not understanding that tuition/room and board were aobut $70,000 annually at the time.    I'm thinking, "I'm killing myself to pay for my kid's tuition at great sacrifice.  How the hell wiill a low paying career enable my kid to pay for his child's education."

We are in a cultural decline for certain.   At St. John's, the highest entry level salaries are available to our College of Pharmacy and Allied Health professionals.   That school likely has the most diverse student population from 1st generation and immigrant students who understand all too well the ROI of education.    Finance and accounting majors know that if they good good grades, there will be a higher paying career available to them.   

I was the first person in my extended family to graduate from a private university.    Even at then low tuition, the only reason I went to SJU was that city college did not offer pharmacy.    Even with tuition at $2500 per year then, my decision was economic.   I graduated with about $8K in student loan debt, and worked two jobs to pay it off as quickly as possible.   Of course the numbers are staggering today, but a kid who doesn't consider the cost to repay that kind of debt is not making a very smart decision to begin with.   

Huge sutdent loans delay purchasing a home, saving for retirement, and saving for your own children's education.   In the Northeast we think of a presitgious college acceptance as a destination and not as a launching pad.   It's just plain stupid to mortgage your future to attend a college you cannot afford when there are perfectly good state and community colleges.
 
 
Beast - all good questions you started with. 

The other one I heard, is what aboutt the HS grad who didn't go to college at all, but took a low paying job, truly tried to get by and also got into credit card debt with high interest rates to live on. Not the ones who just went on shopping sprees 

Where does the line get drawn or determine who deserves "forgiveness"? 

"Forgiveness" is good, to a degree.  But was it a "mistake" or intentional going in that they knowingly were going to incur tens of thousands in debt for a degree ? 

 
 
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RedStormNC" post=422347 said:
Beast - all good questions you started with. 

The other one I heard, is what aboutt the HS grad who didn't go to college at all, but took a low paying job, truly tried to get by and also got into credit card debt with high interest rates to live on. Not the ones who just went on shopping sprees 

Where does the line get drawn or determine who deserves "forgiveness"? 

"Forgiveness" is good, to a degree.  But was it a "mistake" or intentional going in that they knowingly were going to incur tens of thousands in debt for a degree ? 


 
I think that weve ceded personal responsibility in our culture.  Plenty of examples of blaming others for your own bad choices.    I'm all for restructuring debt to something more affordable, but would we forgive an 18 year old for buying a brand new car that he couldn't afford, even if he thought he could earn money as an uber driver or delivering food?   

I do think colleges have some responsibility to have admissions advisors in financial aid show children and their parents the consequence of repaying a loan on say a $30K, 50K, 100K salary.   

I do understand the crippling conseqences of student loan debt.  My kids are debt free, but I have one kid making a really good salary for her age, but spending about 50% of her take home on rent alone in NYC, and can barely stay afloat.    Canceling student loan debt, basically shifts that debt onto others - taxpaying citizens, many of which made better choices about their finances, or sacrificed mightily to avoid debt.    Nothing is free, and there is an enormous price for cancelling student loan debt.

 
 
I will not express an opinion regarding whether I favor student loan foregiveness however if enacted in 2021 then be prepared for subsequent rounds of foregivenss.  It would be unfair to foregive student debt pre 2021 and not later provide similar assistance to the student who borrows in subsequent years.

My thought is that any long term solution to spiraling college costs should include a requirement that colleges must earmark a defined proportion of their endowment, above a breakpoint, to directly reduce tuitiion. My son attended a college with a reported $4.7 billion endowment.  He was a "full pay".  We were fortunate to pay the full freight but it irked me to to no end when I would write the tuition check knowing that the school was sitting on that much money.

Merely foregiving student debt without pressure on the colleges to control costs is a short term solution.  
 
otis" post=422352 said:
I will not express an opinion regarding whether I favor student loan foregiveness however if enacted in 2021 then be prepared for subsequent rounds of foregivenss.  It would be unfair to foregive student debt pre 2021 and not later provide similar assistance to the student who borrows in subsequent years.

My thought is that any long term solution to spiraling college costs should include a requirement that colleges must earmark a defined proportion of their endowment, above a breakpoint, to directly reduce tuitiion. My son attended a college with a reported $4.7 billion endowment.  He was a "full pay".  We were fortunate to pay the full freight but it irked me to to no end when I would write the tuition check knowing that the school was sitting on that much money.

Merely foregiving student debt without pressure on the colleges to control costs is a short term solution.  
I really don't understand how you could be irked by the school's endowment.    You purchased a product - education - from a provider you valued.   Are you irked that Apple is sitting on billions and billions, yet selling iphones for $1200?   Are you irked that Mercedes charges so much more than Toyota?   

When you ask a school to use their endowment to defray tuition, you are directing someone else's donation for an intention you would prefer.    Now, you CAN earmark donations for a purpose, and if you'd prefer, donate only to defray student tuiition, 

I feel that private education is a competition BUSINESS, and that a school can offer any tuition they please.   Consumers can go elsewhere if they feel it is too expensive or does not provide significant value.   

Essentially what you are saying is I really wanted that product for my kid, was not happy about paying full price for it, so it should be cheaper.   The only way to respond to that discontent is to send your kid eslewhere.   Enough people do that, and private schools will be forced to lower tuition.   
 
Beast, how do we address this issue without becoming a society where everyone knows the price of everything but the value of nothing?  My only financial competence is that I know how incompetent I am in this area and get help from pros that I trust.  I am always attracted to sweat equity opportunities as a way to offset costs in a number of fields, (including education and construction and health care) but I do not know the macro financial issues.  This has lots of consequences and I trust this board as a forum for an apolitical discussion of this issue.
 
How about we start by colleges surrending their endowments to cover a portion of what is owed?
  • Harvard University: $38.3 billion
  • University of Texas System: $30.8 billion
  • Yale University: $29.3 billion
  • Stanford University: $26.4 billion
  • Princeton University: $25.9 billion
  • MIT: $16.5 billion
  • University of Pennsylvania: $13.7 billion
  • Texas A&M University System: $13.5 billion
  • University of Michigan: $11.9 billion
  • Northwestern University: $11.1 billion
 
Knight" post=422371 said:
How about we start by colleges surrending their endowments to cover a portion of what is owed?
  • Harvard University: $38.3 billion
  • University of Texas System: $30.8 billion
  • Yale University: $29.3 billion
  • Stanford University: $26.4 billion
  • Princeton University: $25.9 billion
  • MIT: $16.5 billion
  • University of Pennsylvania: $13.7 billion
  • Texas A&M University System: $13.5 billion
  • University of Michigan: $11.9 billion
  • Northwestern University: $11.1 billion
You have identified a list of ome of the most prestigious universities in the world.   Their successful alumni donate mightily to their schools.   One thing they do NOT have to do is lower tuition to attract students.   I hear it over and over again, especially from diverse populations, where my wife taught.  Parents will say, "We will find a way to pay for tuition to a prestigious school, but if our kids don't make that school, SUNY is just fine."   The fact of the matter is that if you graduate from one of the schools listed, by and large, paying off your student loan will be easier.   Those schools present a better value proposition than most private schools ranked about the top 100.    

Stony Brook, Binghamton, and a number of state schools offer a better value proposition than say St. John's or Manhattan.   We give a lot in scholarships and grants, but still many average kids come out with significant debt.   The problem with our country now is that a significant number of people are okay with government entitlements so long as someone else pays for it.   Recent college grads now earning decent livings will almost certainly be paying off their own college debt plus be faced with higher taxes to offset any reduction in student loans given to eligible recipients.    How fair is that?
 
[URL]https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/2...ate-for-more-college-aid-due-to-pandemic.html[/URL]

Some great points Beast. I have two kids going off to college and I don't think parents and students put the same research into buying a college education as they do to buying a home or even a car. If you truly can afford to send your kids to an expensive college and don't care what they major in or what their job prospects are then you don't have to worry. The vast majority of us need to take the value proposition seriously. 

The above article doesn't apply to the Ivy League, the Stanford's, Duke's, Williams and Amherst's of the world and other highly competitive colleges but it does to a lot more schools then people realize. 
 
 
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Andrew" post=422380 said:
[URL]https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/2...ate-for-more-college-aid-due-to-pandemic.html[/URL]

Some great points Beast. I have two kids going off to college and I don't think parents and students put the same research into buying a college education as they do to buying a home or even a car. If you truly can afford to send your kids to an expensive college and don't care what they major in or what their job prospects are then you don't have to worry. The vast majority of us need to take the value proposition seriously. 

The above article doesn't apply to the Ivy League, the Stanford's, Duke's, Williams and Amherst's of the world and other highly competitive colleges but it does to a lot more schools then people realize. 

 
It's a very strange phenomenon.   I think too many parents and students become elated when they receive loan approval so they can attend a college they could otherwise not afford.   However, in many part of the country, a large loan can exceed the cost of a home, certainly a new car, and may be the largest purchase the student and his parents may ever make.    So many students default on loans that I don't think many less astute borrowers believe there is a risk involved for non-payment.

Andrew I agree 1000% about taking the value proposition seriously in terms of studying subject matter that will result in solid financial compensation.   I believe its a generational problem.   We went to school to better our career prospects, while many current students want to study things that interest them regardless.   My wife and I, like many parents, were committed to paying as much of our kid's education as was prudent.  We woudn't empty our 401K's or other retirement plans, but we would sacrifice expensive cars, lavish vacations, even expensive clothing or jewelry, you know excess stuff, which would all come after we could do the best we could providing money for school.    Whether that amount is 5% or 100% of a kid's education, many of us think alike.

This is the problem with government inteference - they think tax dollars come out of an inexhaustible supply from the citizenry.  Our politicians sugar coat this by advocating these taxes will only hit the rich.   It's a lie and everyone realizes that sooner or later.   Already we've gone from erasing all student loan debt, to 50,000 of it, to 10K of it, and even then there are restrictions on whose loans will be reduced by 10K.   

I'm still waiting to do as much abroad travel as the typical college student make in a single semester or year studying abroad.  I imagine much of it is done on a student loan tab.   While studying abroad is a really sweet way to learn, as a college student I didn't so much have the time or money to go in on a hampton Bays share house no less spring break in Florida.  Like many sju students I was too busy working as soon as last class let out.   Our campus emptied out at 2:20 pm monday weds and Fridays, and student literally ran to their cars to get to their PT or FT jobs.   

I'm not certain, but I think that ethic prepared most of us for the hard work that comes with attaining career success of any kind.   There are some really bright guys here - I'm not one of them - but most of us I'm pretty sure have worked their butts off for their families.   

Cancelling student loan debt would be just about the worst message we could send to college students.
 
I have my own solution to the student debt issue.  It's certainly a problem,  and will need to be addressed, but not by cancellation.  

My proposition is that we eliminate soo many of these loopholes that massive corporations are able to use to pay almost no taxes.  We then create a government-run student debt registry.  Massive Companies that want those tax breaks have to now pay their equivalency to the registry of student loan debt. 

The student loan debt problem will be paid down yearly, companies will pay their share, at the same time contributing greatly to the buying power of our economy.  

As far as I see it, the only ones that won't like it are the banks that want interest on these loans.  That said, most companies could earn their tax breaks without just using loopholes to avoid it.  Win-win. 

Cancelling the debt puts burden on the taxpayers instead.  
 
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