Can SJU become a perennial NCAA fixture

beast of the east

beast of the east

Active member
Doing a quick scan of the 2017 bracket, 11 Catholic schools made the tourney field of 68 teams. Considering their size, that is pretty damned impressive.

Gonzaga has made the tourney 19 straight times. Villanova is pretty much a fixture. Cooley and Providence have been in the mix for bids since he arrived. Mack at Xavier has done a really good job, and programs like McDermott's Creighton have shown to be solid. Seton Hall has become more competitive as well.

Despite the surge of successful Catholic school programs, is there really hope for a Catholic School program like SJU, or does administration make too many missteps to consistently make us an NCAA tourney team?
 
All the programs you mention are excellent examples, and the short answer is yes. The real key (besides winning regularly each year) is stability in coaching & recruiting. If we keep changing coaches every 5 years, or if we can't keep guys to stay for more than 1 or 2 years, then it will be a challenge. Many of the schools you listed are doing it without "1 & done" players.
 
In the past 15 seasons, we have been in the NCAA Tournament TWICE!!!!
Mismanagement of the program and poor coaching hires have been major factors
I still believe that, with a supportive administration, the answer is YES
With a relatively new President and a new enthusiastic AD, I still have hope
If they fully support CM and his staff, I believe that we can get there again!!

 
Funny you should pose that question, Beast. As I've been watching these teams and their coaches, it seems to me that we are so far away from where these other programs are. I'm not sure if we can ever become a perennial NCAA fixture. And I'm hoping to see us in the Final Four again in my lifetime. But sorry, I'm not that optimistic. Doesn't mean I'll ever stop rooting for St. John's, or supporting our players and coaches or turn in my season tickets. I'll always be a Redman, through and through.
 
All the programs you mention are excellent examples, and the short answer is yes. The real key (besides winning regularly each year) is stability in coaching & recruiting. If we keep changing coaches every 5 years, or if we can't keep guys to stay for more than 1 or 2 years, then it will be a challenge. Many of the schools you listed are doing it without "1 & done" players.
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Bingo. If I were affiliated with SJU hoops/administration one of first things I would do is evaluate what Xavier is doing that SJU isn't to have so much success in the respects you note and overall. In the last 32 seasons they've only had 5 head coaches, each of whom has made multiple NCAA Tournaments. Over that time they've made the Tournament 25 times overall (78%) and are now on a run of 11 of the last 12, including 4 Sweet 16s and 2 Elite 8s.

I understand a lot of that was done under more advantageous conference circumstances, etc., which is why I note the success the last 12 years in a generally tougher A-10 and now the relatively seamless transition to the Big East.

There could be plenty of advantages Xavier has over SJU from a hoops standpoint, but not enough to explain that kind of disparity between a school in a small midwestern city and a school in New York City. Seems the things they've done so well are making the right coaching hires and recruiting the right types of players for their program/level to generate continuity and sustainability.

Not a comment on CM and staff but prior to current staff SJU obviously has not done that recently, and even in the CM hire SJU clearly went in a different direction philosophically. Perhaps long-term SJU needs to re-calibrate, and to the extent they are don't focus on flashy hire that they think might be long-term solution, and try to become place where you get coaches on the rise? If you get your Jay Wright great, but in the interim be happy getting the Archie Millers or Danny Hurleys before they go to Indiana and other mega-programs?

Easier said that Xavier has made it seem, and perhaps that is just a unique run of hiring success, but I'd certainly be happy having coaches who were so successful at SJU that OSU and Arizona pick them off. A lot of ways to get there but Xavier's certainly seems to be working.
 
Just need to established a class-staggered, talented roster. We are on the way if we can avoid transfers, etc.

One thing about the teams that make deep runs.....very few players weigh less than 200 lbs. It's the men vs boys dynamic. We have a young team, but we also have a "light" team......literally. Makes a difference.
 
Just need to established a class-staggered, talented roster. We are on the way if we can avoid transfers, etc.
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I agree with JohnnyFan that staggered classes without transfers will go a long way towards stability.

St. John's must refine its recruiting to avoid players that create drama and have solid 4 year college careers.

Those of you old enough to know who Eddie Donovan was, may recall him repeatedly saying "to win you do not meet the best players but you do need the players who play together best". Eddie's statement was not double talk but reflected that winning teams play tough defense and cohesive offense. Xavier, Villanova, Gonzaga and others have won over the years with 3* and 4* players who understand the "team first" concept.

I also agree with the above poster that indicated that the NCAA has confirmed to him the distance between St.John's and established NCAA tourney teams. In particular I am skeptical of Coach Mullins offense this season which seemingly lacked set plays and frequently appears hurried and disorganized (distinguish "hurried" from "fast pace") when viewed against most team that have appeared in the tournament.

Xavier, Villanova, Gonzaga and other privates have made true institutional commitments to college basketball which IMO St.John's did not under Harrington.

So yeah, in my opinion St.John's can become a regular participant in the NCAA tourney if the basketball team and the University get their collective act together.
 
Looking back, the type of success you described with those other schools is exactly the type of success we had under Looie, 20+ wins just about every year.

So the answer to your question: bring Looie back.
 
Doing a quick scan of the 2017 bracket, 11 Catholic schools made the tourney field of 68 teams. Considering their size, that is pretty damned impressive.

Gonzaga has made the tourney 19 straight times. Villanova is pretty much a fixture. Cooley and Providence have been in the mix for bids since he arrived. Mack at Xavier has done a really good job, and programs like McDermott's Creighton have shown to be solid. Seton Hall has become more competitive as well.

Despite the surge of successful Catholic school programs, is there really hope for a Catholic School program like SJU, or does administration make too many missteps to consistently make us an NCAA tourney team?
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Beast
For decades we were superior to ALL of those programs!
In life and human studies one can point to a past " high water mark" to determine what's once again doable.
With St. John's it's the NCAA FINAL FOUR.
I have no doubt we can back to that level if the school wants - and bringing Chris back IMO is a step in that direction.

All the best. Important topic you presented cheer: :) :silly:

Sherman, William T.
 
Looking back, the type of success you described with those other schools is exactly the type of success we had under Looie, 20+ wins just about every year.

So the answer to your question: bring Looie back.
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It funny how time changes things
Looie had a lot of detractors when he was coaching at St John's
They felt that his style of play hurt St John's in NYC recruiting circles
They believed that city kids only liked to play by flying up and down the court
Looie's disciplined style with set plays, etc would not be embraced by city kids
Looie, on the other hand, claimed his recruiting budget was a pocket full of tokens
He only needed to get 2-3 good players from the city each year to be competitive
And he was very successful at doing so
A great guy and a great coach!!!
 
It's hard to follow Xavier, Villanova, or Providence model when you can get better recruits than them. That's the situation SJU is in. Xavier, Providence, and until recently Villanova had to recruit 3* and 4* recruits because they didn't have a name on a national scale. SJU for all it's internal problems still has a national name, and recruits like so. The problem with SJU basketball program, is that it has to make a decision. Do you want to be a one and done haven, or do you want to go the four year student route? The administration needs to decide what it wants to be, then yes we can be a perennial tournament team. SJU for all its flaws still has alot going for it.

1) Two NBA hall of Famers for coaches.

2) A name.

3) MSG for a homecourt

4) Spends more money on basketball than most programs

5) And is still considered a good school ( in case they cared about academics) .
 
Of course we can. However, we must not repeat the mistakes we have made over the last 20 or so years. I hope that Coach CM is in the process of once again creating the stability that is needed to find and recruit good players and people that want to be here. If that happens whenever he wants to leave the Program must transition to someone who is also committed to the Program and St John's. We cannot be the Program that is changing coaches every few years as that seems to set us back 3 or 4 years at a clip.
 
Under Lou it was more then a 20 win seasons it was often a top 20 ranking at seasons end
In other sections of this site concern has been voiced regarding the ranking of the university as a university and the business school. I think these and other noted short comings are related including basketball team.
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Just need to established a class-staggered, talented roster. We are on the way if we can avoid transfers, etc.

One thing about the teams that make deep runs.....very few players weigh less than 200 lbs. IT's the old men vs boys dynamic. We have a young team, but we also have a "light" team......literally. Makes a difference.
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First, we'll need to show something next year.
Atleast make the NIT and make a deep run. Maybe a few top 30 recruits wait until April, see what we are doing, and decides to come on board. We'd be real good in 2018-19.

The top kids don't want to have to wait until their 3rd year for the team to make noise, they expect to be in the nba by then.

Yes, we have a "light" team, but I think we are sju not that we might get a "big" transfer who could play right away.
If we get him then he'll help.
 
Perennial? Fixture?

I'll take once every three years and set off fireworks.
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We fired a coach that did better than that! Except for the year he missed coaching due to illness, Lav went to the post season every year with two NCAA tournament appearances. Even Jarvis went to 3 NCAA tournament appearances out of 5 years and in his final full year of coaching won the NIT.
There is a gulf between appearances only because Norm Roberts was a disaster as a coach and recruiter.
Chris Mullin may turn into another coaching mistake if Matt Abdelmassih does not deliver big time in the next two recruiting cycles because so far we have not seen any form of defensive structure established and the offense is even less structured.
Mullin will need one stud per year to hide his coaching deficiencies. That is not an insurmountable goal.
John Calamari on the other hand needs at least 4 five star All Americans every year to hide his coaching deficiencies and he gets them ea$ily. Even so, I can count on one finger the number of national championships he owns.
Mullin can get to a post season every year with the players. If, by year 4 St. John's is not a basketball destination for elite players, the experiment with inexperience will be over. At that point pay the 3 to 4 million for a name coach and stop the experiments like Roberts, Lavin and Mullin.
 
Perennial? Fixture?

I'll take once every three years and set off fireworks.
Click to expand...

We fired a coach that did better than that! Except for the year he missed coaching due to illness, Lav went to the post season every year with two NCAA tournament appearances. Even Jarvis went to 3 NCAA tournament appearances out of 5 years and in his final full year of coaching won the NIT.
There is a gulf between appearances only because Norm Roberts was a disaster as a coach and recruiter.
Chris Mullin may turn into another coaching mistake if Matt Abdelmassih does not deliver big time in the next two recruiting cycles because so far we have not seen any form of defensive structure established and the offense is even less structured.
Mullin will need one stud per year to hide his coaching deficiencies. That is not an insurmountable goal.
John Calamari on the other hand needs at least 4 five star All Americans every year to hide his coaching deficiencies and he gets them ea$ily. Even so, I can count on one finger the number of national championships he owns.
Mullin can get to a post season every year with the players. If, by year 4 St. John's is not a basketball destination for elite players, the experiment with inexperience will be over. At that point pay the 3 to 4 million for a name coach and stop the experiments like Roberts, Lavin and Mullin.
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Probably has underachieved considering his talent but Cal basically has a new team every year. Coaching that way is more difficult even with the incredible talent. Heck coach K gets upset early the years he doesn't win.
 
Under Lou it was more then a 20 win seasons it was often a top 20 ranking at seasons end
In other sections of this site concern has been voiced regarding the ranking of the university as a university and the business school. I think these and other noted short comings are related including basketball team.
.
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You're correct, they're all connected. 75 percent of the US news rankings are built around the following three alumni giving ( being number 1), retention rates ( number 2), and facilities ( number 3). Academics is five percent I believe. If the basketball team improved, alumni donations increases hence ranking increases.

Only two of our schools (school of law , and Pharmacy) and recently the school of education have been solidly strong because of our name and reputation in those fields. To be honest I'm more worried about my grad school (Howard) than SJU. But SJU just has to win more games.
 
Making the tourney on a regular basis can happen. When anywhere from 50% to 70% of your league gets bids, that should be a reachable milestone for a rebuilding program that sunk a lot of money into the staff. The problem is jumping over the teams ahead of you, all with established coaches and programs. Then there is holding off Georgetown,who can only improve upon their prior staff.

Getting in as a low seed, which is likely the best case scenario 2 years from now, is one level of achievement. Winning a game or 2 in the tourney requires another level of talent. Winning in the sweet 16? Every team I saw has multiple guys that can play, and a lot of size and superior athleticism, including great athletes that can also handle the ball and shoot well. We are light years from that kind of a team.

It's all about the right coach, especially for programs that don't have the natural attractions that the usual suspects like Kentucky, N.C,. Kansas and Duke can offer. It's too early to judge Mullin. But no matter the outward optimism, I am sure every poster has some doubts as whether this will work out. Unless you believe that building a program requires the same skill set as playing the game at a hall of fame level. If we don;t have a big recruiting class in 2018, I would say being a perennial tournament team is a long way off.
 
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