2017 Transfers

[usguard]

I am sorry but did we not improve this year? Did we win more conference games and games overall than the previous years? Was there overall improvementi? Our record improved over the first year and should also with the two added pieces who sat out this season. I read some of these posts and I swear many do not expect to see improvement despite the improvement on last year, what we have coming back and what we have that sat out (and the staff still trying to add more pieces).

Yes, if your definition of improvement is just wins.But improvement means much better team play on offense and Defense We had many more games which were lopsided and non competitive X and os were not good constructed plays by staff we not there pico and rolls etc etc with all CM and richomds exp in the game I expected better perhaps ch and richmond should we out recruiting during their beginning of the program recruiting does not just mean looking for top 50 players it means looking for those that many other teams overlooked who can shoot am
nd plat team d I know head coaching is not easy but during the 1st few yrs you should be wearing many hats with CM and RICHMOND'S name recognition they should have been able to pull I'm some top recruits

 

[lawmanfan]

Sigh.
This place never changes.

 

[Spruces2]

[/quote]
We will forever be discussing what ifs when it comes to Steve Lavin.
[/quote]

No thanks.

 

[Red.Fans]

[attachment]Sometimes-We-Just-Have-To-Let-Go.jpg[/attachment]

 

[SJU85]

FDU grad transfer Stephan Jiggets tells me he has cut his list to South Florida, Pacific, Seton Hall, George Washington, UMass, and Fordham.
Per Rothstein

Lesser leagues get ravaged by wholesale transfer market. Perhaps a kid should be allowed only one transfer.

It seems as if the mid major programs are farm teams for the Power 6 schools
They do a good job of developing talent and then lose these kids to big programs
Same as in MLB - the old Expos and Marlins always had great farm systems
But they couldn't pay these guys later on so they had to trade them to big markets
When I was a kid, the KC Athletics were often called the farm team of the Yankees
If the NCAA dropped the graduate transfer option, you would cut out a lot of this

My Dear MR
Yes! Memories!!
The "Pipeline " from KC Athletics to the NYY:

Feb 19, 1957 Yanks get Bobby Shantz art ditmar AND Clete Boyer

May 26, 1959 Yanks get Ralph terry hector Lopez

December 11, 1959 #9 Roger Maris to the Yanks

Sheridan

Although before my time, didn't they also get Enos Slaughter from the KC A's near the end of his career? Also Ryne Duren?

 

[SJU85]

I am sorry but did we not improve this year? Did we win more conference games and games overall than the previous years? Was there overall improvementi? Our record improved over the first year and should also with the two added pieces who sat out this season. I read some of these posts and I swear many do not expect to see improvement despite the improvement on last year, what we have coming back and what we have that sat out (and the staff still trying to add more pieces).

Yes, if your definition of improvement is just wins.But improvement means much better team play on offense and Defense We had many more games which were lopsided and non competitive X and os were not good constructed plays by staff we not there pico and rolls etc etc with all CM and richomds exp in the game I expected better perhaps ch and richmond should we out recruiting during their beginning of the program recruiting does not just mean looking for top 50 players it means looking for those that many other teams overlooked who can shoot am
nd plat team d I know head coaching is not easy but during the 1st few yrs you should be wearing many hats with CM and RICHMOND'S name recognition they should have been able to pull I'm some top recruits

So we improved in wins and loses but CM didn't gain experience from the first year and improve this year?

While we may have found memories of Chris and Richmond as players, most of this kids did not see them play. Heard of them, sure and they have parents and others who can tell them about them. but they have no connection with them. You are talking about a generation who couldn't tell you who was the President before Obama and who the current Vice President is let alone the one before him.

Ewing will face the same thing at GTown but with the exception that he was the first of several big men to come out of Gtown and may urban areas hold that in high esteem.

Lastly, wasn't Ponds a top recruit? Weren't Clark and Simon top recruits out of high school and heavily recruited as transfers? Bashir was a top juco was he not?

 

[logen]

Aside from reeling in a fifth-year big with good numbers who can play right away, and with the exception of grabbing a big-time-program stud like Mustapha Heron (we should be so lucky), I'd much rather see us concentrate on signing HS seniors like Luther Muhammad who can play right away than having us fill up the roster with transfers from mid-majors (or even lower), some of whom have put up less-than-stellar numbers. Weathers, as noted, shot .221 from 3-point range and turned the ball over 5 times a game (for an abysmal 1-to-1 assist-to-TO ration) for a team that finished dead last (4-14) in a mediocre conference; and Kiss shot .408 from the field and .277 from 3-point range from a team that went 7-13 in the MAAC and 10-21 overall. Just not getting the interest in signing guys like these when we've been led to believe we're in good shape with the '18 and '19 HS classes.

I agree! I don't think we are in great shape with any studs. Our record speaks for itself. Going after rethreads of this caliber is disappointing. Big men have to be the priority even if they have to go the Juco route. We are not going anywhere with a front line of the caliber of recuits Matt has focused on like Zach Brown, Yankuba Sima or the hustling Owens.

You do understand that SJU had to basically fill a roster completely during the recruiting "off-season" in the spring of 2015? This led to the signing of Sima, Yakwe, etc. in order to field a remotely reasonable team. I am as critical as the next irrational fan during and immediately after games but the objective reality is that stud recruits, which we are pursuing, are not exactly tripping over themselves to come to a program that was in absolute shambles two years ago and just started to show evidence of climbing out of that hole this past season. And frankly, why should they? So we have a Plan B, that is a bad thing? We are not exactly a program dealing from any kind of strength right now.

I fully understand the roster situation CM inherited in Year 1, and I have no complaints about Matt going after whatever big men were available. Thought he did a terrific job of it. What I do have a problem with is taking transfers with questionable stats and who played for losing lower-tier programs to fill out the roster in Years 3 and 4. As I've noted elsewhere, reaching about to players like Simon and Clark is fine, but some of the names I'm hearing now -- and granted, I've never seen them play -- just don't excite me.

I have not really seen any of the players we may be pursuing either but isn't that what Matt especially gets paid for? My point is we are far from picking and choosing between recruits, that is the reality. We are chasing the high echelon players but right now, from where I sit, we are just not a real inviting alternative for that level player, if we ever will be. So transfers, JUCOs, and being "on" players like Ponds for whom SJU is a viable option is where realistically our recruiting is at IMO. Building a program that was down is tough, building a program from an empty cupboard even more so.

Why are so many fans here using Mullin's first year as a cop out excuse for the future of the basketball program at St. John's?
I wasn't a big Lavin fan but he revived a moribund program left by Storming Norman Roberts.  In the four years he coached he took St. John's to the post season.  The two years prior to Mullin we finished 3rd and 5th in the conference.  The situation we are in is mostly the doing of St. John's.  There is ZERO  excuse in years 3 and 4 to pursue less than 4 star players and not projects.  We were all on board the recruiting train fast track when Mullin  hired Slice and Matt.  Why anyone should settle for the local train instead of the express train is beyond me.  Matt had already made plenty of player contacts at Iowa state.  Mullin and Richmond are supposed to Hall of Fame names meant to attract players.  Lavin, who had been out of coaching for six years, was able to put us on the fast track.  I expect no less from this staff.  If recruiters can get players to visit Spokane, Columbia SC, Storrs, Cincinnati, Syracuse  (no offense Otis), we should be able to target quality players to come to the Big Apple. 

Here is the so-called down program before Mullin:

 2100–11 St. John's 21–12 12–6 T - 3rd NCAA Round of 64
*
2012–13 St. John's 17–14 ** 8–8 ** 11th NIT Second Round
2013–14 St. John's 20–13 10–8 T–3rd NIT First Round
2014–15 St. John's 21−12 10−8 5th NCAA Round of 64

How many players did CM inherit from the 2014-2015 team?

How many players did SL inherit from the 2009-2010 team?

After SL's first real recruiting class that included Harkless and Harrison (I'll give him a pass when he took over the team as he had a pretty stocked roster in terms of available Scholarships and brought in Polee)? Sampson and Obekpa then Jordan.

CM was way behind what SL inherited, just saying.

We will forever be discussing what ifs when it comes to Steve Lavin.
What if he had not suffered cancer?
What if some players had stayed like Sampson, Obekpa and Jordan.
Would we still have signed Brandon Sampson or Samir Doughty? Would we have had a chance with Ponds?
What if Lavin worked a little bit harder recruiting?
What if Rico Hines was replaced by a real assistant?
What if the A D weren't such a dick?
Fast forward......are we going to start asking similar questions but with a different cast because shit always happens at St. John's like the Slice drama and resultant effects, the Matt drama and hopefully positive effects, the Mullin learning curve, etc.
WE ARE...

But you were the one who brought up Lavin ??????
To the majority of the board we have moved on. Why did you bring him up ????
Sorry but many a coach has had prostate cancer and has continued to coach a while later and certainly continued to recruit.
But Sampson , Jordan and Obekps didn't stay they left , why should we discuss them, that is college ball.
Who cares about Samir Doughty , he was ineligible his freshman season , he couldn't have helped us last year.
And why did Lavin stop recruiting his last 2 years ????
Do you have the answer , I certainly don't. I know he didn't stop going to fancy restaurants.
And why didn't he replace Rico who was very busy but not recruiting.
And what does the former dick AD have to do with this ????

With all due respect North, Steve Lavin will be, and is, part of St. John's basketball history. The post by Logen specifically said "Building a program that was down is tough, building a program from an empty cupboard even more so.

".
My response was within that context.
The majority of this board has not moved on because some here will continue to point to Lavin's final year as an excuse for Chris Mullin winning ONE Big East game in a 10 team conference.
As lazy as Lavin was recruiting locally, he came within an under-the-table Kentucky style signing. Had he sealed the the deal with Briscoe we may not be having these discussions right now. Had he dismissed Jordan and straightened out Obekpa we may not be having these discussions.
I said it then and I'll say it again, getting recruits early is the way successful programs stay relevant. Lavin never did that. If this staff suffers the same fate with a few highly touted local players at the expense of the greater national pool of talent, they will suffer the same fate.
As for the previous AD, he was a useless POS who provided zero support to the basketball staff both in good times and bad. Tanning and chasing after female coaches took too much of his time. A real D1 AD would have had discussions with Lavin after year three about the direction of the program. They barely spoke to one another.
Hope this clarifies things a bit.[/quote]

If, If, If, If...the fact is he stopped working his last couple of years, spin it any way you want to. He stopped working and left an empty roster for the next coach and created a parallel universe for you to play your "What Ifs" in. You pine for a guy who quit working, plain and simple.

 

[paultzman]

Of course
Per Goodman
Kerem Kanter told ESPN he will visit Xavier this weekend. Younger brother of Enes averaged 11.3 ppg, 6.3 rpg at Green Bay. Grad transfer.

 

[Lopez_13]

Honestly, I'm here to see what potential transfers are available to help our team either this year or the next. I am not here to scroll through archives of back and forth banter, that just reaffirms how miserable it has been as a St. John's fan. Take that stuff to the PMs. Now let me get back to wishing we get the Memphis duo.

 

[L J S A]

Honestly, I'm here to see what potential transfers are available to help our team either this year or the next. I am not here to scroll through archives of back and forth banter, that just reaffirms how miserable it has been as a St. John's fan. Take that stuff to the PMs. Now let me get back to wishing we get the Memphis duo.

You sound like the guy with the snug T-shirt who got banned from and laughed off two sites.

 

[Class of 72]

Aside from reeling in a fifth-year big with good numbers who can play right away, and with the exception of grabbing a big-time-program stud like Mustapha Heron (we should be so lucky), I'd much rather see us concentrate on signing HS seniors like Luther Muhammad who can play right away than having us fill up the roster with transfers from mid-majors (or even lower), some of whom have put up less-than-stellar numbers. Weathers, as noted, shot .221 from 3-point range and turned the ball over 5 times a game (for an abysmal 1-to-1 assist-to-TO ration) for a team that finished dead last (4-14) in a mediocre conference; and Kiss shot .408 from the field and .277 from 3-point range from a team that went 7-13 in the MAAC and 10-21 overall. Just not getting the interest in signing guys like these when we've been led to believe we're in good shape with the '18 and '19 HS classes.

I agree! I don't think we are in great shape with any studs. Our record speaks for itself. Going after rethreads of this caliber is disappointing. Big men have to be the priority even if they have to go the Juco route. We are not going anywhere with a front line of the caliber of recuits Matt has focused on like Zach Brown, Yankuba Sima or the hustling Owens.

You do understand that SJU had to basically fill a roster completely during the recruiting "off-season" in the spring of 2015? This led to the signing of Sima, Yakwe, etc. in order to field a remotely reasonable team. I am as critical as the next irrational fan during and immediately after games but the objective reality is that stud recruits, which we are pursuing, are not exactly tripping over themselves to come to a program that was in absolute shambles two years ago and just started to show evidence of climbing out of that hole this past season. And frankly, why should they? So we have a Plan B, that is a bad thing? We are not exactly a program dealing from any kind of strength right now.

I fully understand the roster situation CM inherited in Year 1, and I have no complaints about Matt going after whatever big men were available. Thought he did a terrific job of it. What I do have a problem with is taking transfers with questionable stats and who played for losing lower-tier programs to fill out the roster in Years 3 and 4. As I've noted elsewhere, reaching about to players like Simon and Clark is fine, but some of the names I'm hearing now -- and granted, I've never seen them play -- just don't excite me.

I have not really seen any of the players we may be pursuing either but isn't that what Matt especially gets paid for? My point is we are far from picking and choosing between recruits, that is the reality. We are chasing the high echelon players but right now, from where I sit, we are just not a real inviting alternative for that level player, if we ever will be. So transfers, JUCOs, and being "on" players like Ponds for whom SJU is a viable option is where realistically our recruiting is at IMO. Building a program that was down is tough, building a program from an empty cupboard even more so.

Why are so many fans here using Mullin's first year as a cop out excuse for the future of the basketball program at St. John's?
I wasn't a big Lavin fan but he revived a moribund program left by Storming Norman Roberts.  In the four years he coached he took St. John's to the post season.  The two years prior to Mullin we finished 3rd and 5th in the conference.  The situation we are in is mostly the doing of St. John's.  There is ZERO  excuse in years 3 and 4 to pursue less than 4 star players and not projects.  We were all on board the recruiting train fast track when Mullin  hired Slice and Matt.  Why anyone should settle for the local train instead of the express train is beyond me.  Matt had already made plenty of player contacts at Iowa state.  Mullin and Richmond are supposed to Hall of Fame names meant to attract players.  Lavin, who had been out of coaching for six years, was able to put us on the fast track.  I expect no less from this staff.  If recruiters can get players to visit Spokane, Columbia SC, Storrs, Cincinnati, Syracuse  (no offense Otis), we should be able to target quality players to come to the Big Apple. 

Here is the so-called down program before Mullin:

 2100–11 St. John's 21–12 12–6 T - 3rd NCAA Round of 64
*
2012–13 St. John's 17–14 ** 8–8 ** 11th NIT Second Round
2013–14 St. John's 20–13 10–8 T–3rd NIT First Round
2014–15 St. John's 21−12 10−8 5th NCAA Round of 64

How many players did CM inherit from the 2014-2015 team?

How many players did SL inherit from the 2009-2010 team?

After SL's first real recruiting class that included Harkless and Harrison (I'll give him a pass when he took over the team as he had a pretty stocked roster in terms of available Scholarships and brought in Polee)? Sampson and Obekpa then Jordan.

CM was way behind what SL inherited, just saying.

We will forever be discussing what ifs when it comes to Steve Lavin.
What if he had not suffered cancer?
What if some players had stayed like Sampson, Obekpa and Jordan.
Would we still have signed Brandon Sampson or Samir Doughty? Would we have had a chance with Ponds?
What if Lavin worked a little bit harder recruiting?
What if Rico Hines was replaced by a real assistant?
What if the A D weren't such a dick?
Fast forward......are we going to start asking similar questions but with a different cast because shit always happens at St. John's like the Slice drama and resultant effects, the Matt drama and hopefully positive effects, the Mullin learning curve, etc.
WE ARE...

But you were the one who brought up Lavin ??????
To the majority of the board we have moved on. Why did you bring him up ????
Sorry but many a coach has had prostate cancer and has continued to coach a while later and certainly continued to recruit.
But Sampson , Jordan and Obekps didn't stay they left , why should we discuss them, that is college ball.
Who cares about Samir Doughty , he was ineligible his freshman season , he couldn't have helped us last year.
And why did Lavin stop recruiting his last 2 years ????
Do you have the answer , I certainly don't. I know he didn't stop going to fancy restaurants.
And why didn't he replace Rico who was very busy but not recruiting.
And what does the former dick AD have to do with this ????

With all due respect North, Steve Lavin will be, and is, part of St. John's basketball history. The post by Logen specifically said "Building a program that was down is tough, building a program from an empty cupboard even more so.

".
My response was within that context.
The majority of this board has not moved on because some here will continue to point to Lavin's final year as an excuse for Chris Mullin winning ONE Big East game in a 10 team conference.
As lazy as Lavin was recruiting locally, he came within an under-the-table Kentucky style signing. Had he sealed the the deal with Briscoe we may not be having these discussions right now. Had he dismissed Jordan and straightened out Obekpa we may not be having these discussions.
I said it then and I'll say it again, getting recruits early is the way successful programs stay relevant. Lavin never did that. If this staff suffers the same fate with a few highly touted local players at the expense of the greater national pool of talent, they will suffer the same fate.
As for the previous AD, he was a useless POS who provided zero support to the basketball staff both in good times and bad. Tanning and chasing after female coaches took too much of his time. A real D1 AD would have had discussions with Lavin after year three about the direction of the program. They barely spoke to one another.
Hope this clarifies things a bit.

If, If, If, If...the fact is he stopped working his last couple of years, spin it any way you want to. He stopped working and left an empty roster for the next coach and created a parallel universe for you to play your "What Ifs" in. You pine for a guy who quit working, plain and simple.[/quote]

Your responses are a pine in my ass! I pine only for a 5'10 blonde I was bonking in 1975. If Paul has his archives in order please note I was criticized by some here for saying if Lavin did not sign Briscoe he was history even though Lovett was coming to St. John's regardless. Keep in mind Chris Obekpa would not have transferred. Sampson had verbally committed. No matter how some yahoos spin it, a team of Briscoe, Sampson, Obekpa, Jones, etc, would likely have won more than one Big East game. Briscoe was the key because he would have brought other players eventually and established a Jersey pipeline.
Now, this is current redmen history that a few here seem to find issue with but fans like Fuchsia, the General and quite a few others here, including me, still speculate WHAT IF or WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN when discussing Lew Alcindor.
In the days before age descrminiation became verboten St. John's committed basketball suicide by forcing Joe Lapchick to retire and losing out on the most significant recruit in basketball history.
Now, that was only a half century ago but who's counting? Apparently, when it come to Lavin, it may have been a century ago.
Alcindor may have picked UCLA anyway but it is still nice to dream. I prefer to dream big now too.

Here's the Daily Bruin that did a nice job on the recruitment and stating it had come down to St. John's and UCLA after Lew eliminated NYU and Boston College. Enjoy!

[/quote]

 

[stjohnnie75]

Honestly, I'm here to see what potential transfers are available to help our team either this year or the next. I am not here to scroll through archives of back and forth banter, that just reaffirms how miserable it has been as a St. John's fan. Take that stuff to the PMs. Now let me get back to wishing we get the Memphis duo.

They are most likely headed to the SEC.

 

[Lopez_13]

Thanks for that enlightening response LJSA but I have no idea who you talking about or think I may potential be, but you got the wrong guy.

 

[Red.Fans]

not a transfer but just asked out of his LOI and would be one of the best prospects available. I wonder if he isn't ending up at MO, be great to give it the old college try...

2017 East St. Louis (IL)/Illinois commit C Jeremiah Tilmon has requested a release from his LOI.

says he and his family want to explore all options available since coaching change so sounds like a good entre:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...itment-illinois-spt-0406-20170405-column.html

 

[1and1sju]

I'm pretty upset no one told me about this Lavin debate. I didn't check the board for 2 days and all of a sudden we're discussing SL again? Not fair.

I should have an opportunity to share my opinion of Lavin too. I don't think I've mentioned it before.

 

[Spruces2]

I'm pretty upset no one told me about this Lavin debate. I didn't check the board for 2 days and all of a sudden we're discussing SL again? Not fair.

I should have an opportunity to share my opinion of Lavin too. I don't think I've mentioned it before.

Time well spent...

 

[SJU85]

Aside from reeling in a fifth-year big with good numbers who can play right away, and with the exception of grabbing a big-time-program stud like Mustapha Heron (we should be so lucky), I'd much rather see us concentrate on signing HS seniors like Luther Muhammad who can play right away than having us fill up the roster with transfers from mid-majors (or even lower), some of whom have put up less-than-stellar numbers. Weathers, as noted, shot .221 from 3-point range and turned the ball over 5 times a game (for an abysmal 1-to-1 assist-to-TO ration) for a team that finished dead last (4-14) in a mediocre conference; and Kiss shot .408 from the field and .277 from 3-point range from a team that went 7-13 in the MAAC and 10-21 overall. Just not getting the interest in signing guys like these when we've been led to believe we're in good shape with the '18 and '19 HS classes.

I agree! I don't think we are in great shape with any studs. Our record speaks for itself. Going after rethreads of this caliber is disappointing. Big men have to be the priority even if they have to go the Juco route. We are not going anywhere with a front line of the caliber of recuits Matt has focused on like Zach Brown, Yankuba Sima or the hustling Owens.

You do understand that SJU had to basically fill a roster completely during the recruiting "off-season" in the spring of 2015? This led to the signing of Sima, Yakwe, etc. in order to field a remotely reasonable team. I am as critical as the next irrational fan during and immediately after games but the objective reality is that stud recruits, which we are pursuing, are not exactly tripping over themselves to come to a program that was in absolute shambles two years ago and just started to show evidence of climbing out of that hole this past season. And frankly, why should they? So we have a Plan B, that is a bad thing? We are not exactly a program dealing from any kind of strength right now.

I fully understand the roster situation CM inherited in Year 1, and I have no complaints about Matt going after whatever big men were available. Thought he did a terrific job of it. What I do have a problem with is taking transfers with questionable stats and who played for losing lower-tier programs to fill out the roster in Years 3 and 4. As I've noted elsewhere, reaching about to players like Simon and Clark is fine, but some of the names I'm hearing now -- and granted, I've never seen them play -- just don't excite me.

I have not really seen any of the players we may be pursuing either but isn't that what Matt especially gets paid for? My point is we are far from picking and choosing between recruits, that is the reality. We are chasing the high echelon players but right now, from where I sit, we are just not a real inviting alternative for that level player, if we ever will be. So transfers, JUCOs, and being "on" players like Ponds for whom SJU is a viable option is where realistically our recruiting is at IMO. Building a program that was down is tough, building a program from an empty cupboard even more so.

Why are so many fans here using Mullin's first year as a cop out excuse for the future of the basketball program at St. John's?
I wasn't a big Lavin fan but he revived a moribund program left by Storming Norman Roberts.  In the four years he coached he took St. John's to the post season.  The two years prior to Mullin we finished 3rd and 5th in the conference.  The situation we are in is mostly the doing of St. John's.  There is ZERO  excuse in years 3 and 4 to pursue less than 4 star players and not projects.  We were all on board the recruiting train fast track when Mullin  hired Slice and Matt.  Why anyone should settle for the local train instead of the express train is beyond me.  Matt had already made plenty of player contacts at Iowa state.  Mullin and Richmond are supposed to Hall of Fame names meant to attract players.  Lavin, who had been out of coaching for six years, was able to put us on the fast track.  I expect no less from this staff.  If recruiters can get players to visit Spokane, Columbia SC, Storrs, Cincinnati, Syracuse  (no offense Otis), we should be able to target quality players to come to the Big Apple. 

Here is the so-called down program before Mullin:

 2100–11 St. John's 21–12 12–6 T - 3rd NCAA Round of 64
*
2012–13 St. John's 17–14 ** 8–8 ** 11th NIT Second Round
2013–14 St. John's 20–13 10–8 T–3rd NIT First Round
2014–15 St. John's 21−12 10−8 5th NCAA Round of 64

How many players did CM inherit from the 2014-2015 team?

How many players did SL inherit from the 2009-2010 team?

After SL's first real recruiting class that included Harkless and Harrison (I'll give him a pass when he took over the team as he had a pretty stocked roster in terms of available Scholarships and brought in Polee)? Sampson and Obekpa then Jordan.

CM was way behind what SL inherited, just saying.

We will forever be discussing what ifs when it comes to Steve Lavin.
What if he had not suffered cancer?
What if some players had stayed like Sampson, Obekpa and Jordan.
Would we still have signed Brandon Sampson or Samir Doughty? Would we have had a chance with Ponds?
What if Lavin worked a little bit harder recruiting?
What if Rico Hines was replaced by a real assistant?
What if the A D weren't such a dick?
Fast forward......are we going to start asking similar questions but with a different cast because shit always happens at St. John's like the Slice drama and resultant effects, the Matt drama and hopefully positive effects, the Mullin learning curve, etc.
WE ARE...

But you were the one who brought up Lavin ??????
To the majority of the board we have moved on. Why did you bring him up ????
Sorry but many a coach has had prostate cancer and has continued to coach a while later and certainly continued to recruit.
But Sampson , Jordan and Obekps didn't stay they left , why should we discuss them, that is college ball.
Who cares about Samir Doughty , he was ineligible his freshman season , he couldn't have helped us last year.
And why did Lavin stop recruiting his last 2 years ????
Do you have the answer , I certainly don't. I know he didn't stop going to fancy restaurants.
And why didn't he replace Rico who was very busy but not recruiting.
And what does the former dick AD have to do with this ????

With all due respect North, Steve Lavin will be, and is, part of St. John's basketball history. The post by Logen specifically said "Building a program that was down is tough, building a program from an empty cupboard even more so.

".
My response was within that context.
The majority of this board has not moved on because some here will continue to point to Lavin's final year as an excuse for Chris Mullin winning ONE Big East game in a 10 team conference.
As lazy as Lavin was recruiting locally, he came within an under-the-table Kentucky style signing. Had he sealed the the deal with Briscoe we may not be having these discussions right now. Had he dismissed Jordan and straightened out Obekpa we may not be having these discussions.
I said it then and I'll say it again, getting recruits early is the way successful programs stay relevant. Lavin never did that. If this staff suffers the same fate with a few highly touted local players at the expense of the greater national pool of talent, they will suffer the same fate.
As for the previous AD, he was a useless POS who provided zero support to the basketball staff both in good times and bad. Tanning and chasing after female coaches took too much of his time. A real D1 AD would have had discussions with Lavin after year three about the direction of the program. They barely spoke to one another.
Hope this clarifies things a bit.

If, If, If, If...the fact is he stopped working his last couple of years, spin it any way you want to. He stopped working and left an empty roster for the next coach and created a parallel universe for you to play your "What Ifs" in. You pine for a guy who quit working, plain and simple.

Your responses are a pine in my ass! I pine only for a 5'10 blonde I was bonking in 1975. If Paul has his archives in order please note I was criticized by some here for saying if Lavin did not sign Briscoe he was history even though Lovett was coming to St. John's regardless. Keep in mind Chris Obekpa would not have transferred. Sampson had verbally committed. No matter how some yahoos spin it, a team of Briscoe, Sampson, Obekpa, Jones, etc, would likely have won more than one Big East game. Briscoe was the key because he would have brought other players eventually and established a Jersey pipeline.
Now, this is current redmen history that a few here seem to find issue with but fans like Fuchsia, the General and quite a few others here, including me, still speculate WHAT IF or WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN when discussing Lew Alcindor.
In the days before age descrminiation became verboten St. John's committed basketball suicide by forcing Joe Lapchick to retire and losing out on the most significant recruit in basketball history.
Now, that was only a half century ago but who's counting? Apparently, when it come to Lavin, it may have been a century ago.
Alcindor may have picked UCLA anyway but it is still nice to dream. I prefer to dream big now too.

Here's the Daily Bruin that did a nice job on the recruitment and stating it had come down to St. John's and UCLA after Lew eliminated NYU and Boston College. Enjoy!

[/quote][/quote]

Lovett was a back up plan because Briscoe wasn't coming. We can all play the "what if" game. What if Briscoe and Sampson had come, would we have Lovett and/or Ponds. What if Jordan had actually passed his classes? What if we actually had an AD after Manetta left?

 

[monte]

I have nothing to add to the Lav vs Mullin debate, so I won't even try. But it's certainly fair to compare the 2 coaches at various junctures. Don't like the subject matter, don't get involved in the discussion.

 

[Class of 72]

Aside from reeling in a fifth-year big with good numbers who can play right away, and with the exception of grabbing a big-time-program stud like Mustapha Heron (we should be so lucky), I'd much rather see us concentrate on signing HS seniors like Luther Muhammad who can play right away than having us fill up the roster with transfers from mid-majors (or even lower), some of whom have put up less-than-stellar numbers. Weathers, as noted, shot .221 from 3-point range and turned the ball over 5 times a game (for an abysmal 1-to-1 assist-to-TO ration) for a team that finished dead last (4-14) in a mediocre conference; and Kiss shot .408 from the field and .277 from 3-point range from a team that went 7-13 in the MAAC and 10-21 overall. Just not getting the interest in signing guys like these when we've been led to believe we're in good shape with the '18 and '19 HS classes.

I agree! I don't think we are in great shape with any studs. Our record speaks for itself. Going after rethreads of this caliber is disappointing. Big men have to be the priority even if they have to go the Juco route. We are not going anywhere with a front line of the caliber of recuits Matt has focused on like Zach Brown, Yankuba Sima or the hustling Owens.

You do understand that SJU had to basically fill a roster completely during the recruiting "off-season" in the spring of 2015? This led to the signing of Sima, Yakwe, etc. in order to field a remotely reasonable team. I am as critical as the next irrational fan during and immediately after games but the objective reality is that stud recruits, which we are pursuing, are not exactly tripping over themselves to come to a program that was in absolute shambles two years ago and just started to show evidence of climbing out of that hole this past season. And frankly, why should they? So we have a Plan B, that is a bad thing? We are not exactly a program dealing from any kind of strength right now.

I fully understand the roster situation CM inherited in Year 1, and I have no complaints about Matt going after whatever big men were available. Thought he did a terrific job of it. What I do have a problem with is taking transfers with questionable stats and who played for losing lower-tier programs to fill out the roster in Years 3 and 4. As I've noted elsewhere, reaching about to players like Simon and Clark is fine, but some of the names I'm hearing now -- and granted, I've never seen them play -- just don't excite me.

I have not really seen any of the players we may be pursuing either but isn't that what Matt especially gets paid for? My point is we are far from picking and choosing between recruits, that is the reality. We are chasing the high echelon players but right now, from where I sit, we are just not a real inviting alternative for that level player, if we ever will be. So transfers, JUCOs, and being "on" players like Ponds for whom SJU is a viable option is where realistically our recruiting is at IMO. Building a program that was down is tough, building a program from an empty cupboard even more so.

Why are so many fans here using Mullin's first year as a cop out excuse for the future of the basketball program at St. John's?
I wasn't a big Lavin fan but he revived a moribund program left by Storming Norman Roberts.  In the four years he coached he took St. John's to the post season.  The two years prior to Mullin we finished 3rd and 5th in the conference.  The situation we are in is mostly the doing of St. John's.  There is ZERO  excuse in years 3 and 4 to pursue less than 4 star players and not projects.  We were all on board the recruiting train fast track when Mullin  hired Slice and Matt.  Why anyone should settle for the local train instead of the express train is beyond me.  Matt had already made plenty of player contacts at Iowa state.  Mullin and Richmond are supposed to Hall of Fame names meant to attract players.  Lavin, who had been out of coaching for six years, was able to put us on the fast track.  I expect no less from this staff.  If recruiters can get players to visit Spokane, Columbia SC, Storrs, Cincinnati, Syracuse  (no offense Otis), we should be able to target quality players to come to the Big Apple. 

Here is the so-called down program before Mullin:

 2100–11 St. John's 21–12 12–6 T - 3rd NCAA Round of 64
*
2012–13 St. John's 17–14 ** 8–8 ** 11th NIT Second Round
2013–14 St. John's 20–13 10–8 T–3rd NIT First Round
2014–15 St. John's 21−12 10−8 5th NCAA Round of 64

How many players did CM inherit from the 2014-2015 team?

How many players did SL inherit from the 2009-2010 team?

After SL's first real recruiting class that included Harkless and Harrison (I'll give him a pass when he took over the team as he had a pretty stocked roster in terms of available Scholarships and brought in Polee)? Sampson and Obekpa then Jordan.

CM was way behind what SL inherited, just saying.

We will forever be discussing what ifs when it comes to Steve Lavin.
What if he had not suffered cancer?
What if some players had stayed like Sampson, Obekpa and Jordan.
Would we still have signed Brandon Sampson or Samir Doughty? Would we have had a chance with Ponds?
What if Lavin worked a little bit harder recruiting?
What if Rico Hines was replaced by a real assistant?
What if the A D weren't such a dick?
Fast forward......are we going to start asking similar questions but with a different cast because shit always happens at St. John's like the Slice drama and resultant effects, the Matt drama and hopefully positive effects, the Mullin learning curve, etc.
WE ARE...

But you were the one who brought up Lavin ??????
To the majority of the board we have moved on. Why did you bring him up ????
Sorry but many a coach has had prostate cancer and has continued to coach a while later and certainly continued to recruit.
But Sampson , Jordan and Obekps didn't stay they left , why should we discuss them, that is college ball.
Who cares about Samir Doughty , he was ineligible his freshman season , he couldn't have helped us last year.
And why did Lavin stop recruiting his last 2 years ????
Do you have the answer , I certainly don't. I know he didn't stop going to fancy restaurants.
And why didn't he replace Rico who was very busy but not recruiting.
And what does the former dick AD have to do with this ????

With all due respect North, Steve Lavin will be, and is, part of St. John's basketball history. The post by Logen specifically said "Building a program that was down is tough, building a program from an empty cupboard even more so.

".
My response was within that context.
The majority of this board has not moved on because some here will continue to point to Lavin's final year as an excuse for Chris Mullin winning ONE Big East game in a 10 team conference.
As lazy as Lavin was recruiting locally, he came within an under-the-table Kentucky style signing. Had he sealed the the deal with Briscoe we may not be having these discussions right now. Had he dismissed Jordan and straightened out Obekpa we may not be having these discussions.
I said it then and I'll say it again, getting recruits early is the way successful programs stay relevant. Lavin never did that. If this staff suffers the same fate with a few highly touted local players at the expense of the greater national pool of talent, they will suffer the same fate.
As for the previous AD, he was a useless POS who provided zero support to the basketball staff both in good times and bad. Tanning and chasing after female coaches took too much of his time. A real D1 AD would have had discussions with Lavin after year three about the direction of the program. They barely spoke to one another.
Hope this clarifies things a bit.

If, If, If, If...the fact is he stopped working his last couple of years, spin it any way you want to. He stopped working and left an empty roster for the next coach and created a parallel universe for you to play your "What Ifs" in. You pine for a guy who quit working, plain and simple.

Your responses are a pine in my ass! I pine only for a 5'10 blonde I was bonking in 1975. If Paul has his archives in order please note I was criticized by some here for saying if Lavin did not sign Briscoe he was history even though Lovett was coming to St. John's regardless. Keep in mind Chris Obekpa would not have transferred. Sampson had verbally committed. No matter how some yahoos spin it, a team of Briscoe, Sampson, Obekpa, Jones, etc, would likely have won more than one Big East game. Briscoe was the key because he would have brought other players eventually and established a Jersey pipeline.
Now, this is current redmen history that a few here seem to find issue with but fans like Fuchsia, the General and quite a few others here, including me, still speculate WHAT IF or WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN when discussing Lew Alcindor.
In the days before age descrminiation became verboten St. John's committed basketball suicide by forcing Joe Lapchick to retire and losing out on the most significant recruit in basketball history.
Now, that was only a half century ago but who's counting? Apparently, when it come to Lavin, it may have been a century ago.
Alcindor may have picked UCLA anyway but it is still nice to dream. I prefer to dream big now too.

Here's the Daily Bruin that did a nice job on the recruitment and stating it had come down to St. John's and UCLA after Lew eliminated NYU and Boston College. Enjoy!

[/quote]

Lovett was a back up plan because Briscoe wasn't coming. We can all play the "what if" game. What if Briscoe and Sampson had come, would we have Lovett and/or Ponds. What if Jordan had actually passed his classes? What if we actually had an AD after Manetta left?[/quote]

Some more "what ifs" in Lavin's time: What if Mo Harkless stayed a couple of more years? What if Norvel Pelle actually qualified? What if the Nurideen Lindsey stayed and developed his game? What if Jakarr Sampson stayed? What would 4 years of Harkless, Sampson, Harrison, Pointer, Green, Pelle, etc. looked like post season-wise. What if Lavin never got sick? What if Keady replaced Rico Hines as Associate Head Coach? Would his final 3 years have included 25+ winning seasons and sweet 16's?
Would Lew Alcindor still be Lew and Catholic instead of being Karim LA Cool Abdul, Mr. Hollywood? Did having the prospect of playing for a little Italian when Joe retired doom St. John's to an * in history?
WHAT IF......

 

[we are sju]

As long as there is not a Mullin vs Norm thread 4 years from now I will be happy!